Questions on turbocharging a 90 legacy ls wagon.....

ub_imprezzed · Post by **ub_imprezzed** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 4:42 am

k, im new here as well as the subaru world, but not to the turbocharged world, i am going to be purchasing a white '90 legacy LS wagon in c ouple days for 200 bux, it needs a clutch, i would liek suggestions on that if you could, and also, i plan on turbocharging this car hopefully just using stock legacy turbo parts or whatever is cheap or whatever is needed.

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 4:45 am

swap in the ej22t and call it a day.

ub_imprezzed · Post by **ub_imprezzed** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 5:56 am

well, its only a 200 dollar car, so its just a beater, i just wanna do soemthing simple for a little extra power
dont really want to put too much time and money into it just to have it fall apart....

IggDawg · Post by **IggDawg** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:05 am

The NA EJ22 doesn't respond well to turbocharging. you can't expect much of a gain unless you put some time, money, and a lot of effort into it. in all honesty, dropping an EJ22t into it will be cheaper and easier than turbo'ing it.

just out of curiosity, what is your past turbocharging experience in? jsut so I can relate this to what you've done before. it's vastly different than dealing with I-4 engines.

ub_imprezzed · Post by **ub_imprezzed** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:29 am

i am very familiar with honda engines, i have a 94 acura integra, and i put together a custom turbo setup, along with a hondata standalone engine management system, and as far as the subaru, i am not going for making crazy HP numbers, just want something fun to play around with to learn a little about subarus mostly, im getting the car for 200 bux, haha

THAWA · Post by **THAWA** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:51 am

If you don't want to put a lot of money in it, you aren't going to get away with turboing it. You should probably just save for a sport sedan or touring wagon if you want a turbo engine. That's not to say your car wont be fun.

IggDawg · Post by **IggDawg** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 7:02 am

ub_imprezzed wrote:i am very familiar with honda engines, i have a 94 acura integra, and i put together a custom turbo setup, along with a hondata standalone engine management system, and as far as the subaru, i am not going for making crazy HP numbers, just want something fun to play around with to learn a little about subarus mostly, im getting the car for 200 bux, haha

I have a CRX, so I know all about turbo'ing hondas. it's a little more involved. mostly because of the lack of aftermarket support. it's not like you can hop over to PGMFI.org and get all the stats

.

I'm just telling you all this so you know that the engine won't respond to turbo the way honda engines do. and they can't handle much boost before you start to really worry about internals. the best you can expect form the stock 2.2 bottom end is maybe 160-ish hp. it don't like the boost much. the cam is way off and the heads don't flow too well.

BUT.... if you are still interested in giving it a shot, here's some stuff you'll need...

front crossmember (Legacy turbo or WRX)
exhaust manifold (Legacy turbo or WRX)
uppipe (Legacy turbo or WRX. preferably legacy turbo... no cat)
downpipe (Legacy turbo or WRX)
intercooler (saab 900, WRX, STi V2)
turbo (your choice here)
injectors (depending on application)
management (RRFPR... S-AFC... take your pic)
legacy turbo hood (see notes)

"normally," the turbo would be supported by the exhaust manifold... on a Honda it just kinda hangs there. In a Subaru, the uppipe would support it, but the manifold and uppipe can't handle this so there's a bracket on turbo subaru crossmembers to hold it. so you need to get that crossmember. and that can be a bitch. they are rare. all the RS guys snap them up to turbo their RSs. you really can't get by without it. your manifolds will crack very quickly. so hunt around all you can.

You MUST intercool it. can't get away without it like the legacy turbo guys can. you have to intercool even if you're only pushing a couple pounds. you can't mount a FMIC without major modification, so you'll have to go with a TMIC. you'll need to get an air/water intercooler or an air/air intercooler and either get a legacy turbo hood or chop a WRX scoop into your hood.

I don't know if you can get away with stock injectors and the stock pump. it's worth a search.

the rest of the install is fairly straightforeward.

lastly, what materials do you have already? I'm assuming you have a turbo and some other stuff handy, since you're planning on this being a cheap job.

any specific questions? I'll answer anything I can. I've already warned you about how the engien behaves, so if you're still gonna give it a shot I might as well make sure you don;t blow your motor

.

PS - I'm not trying to make this sound more complicated than it is. I'm really trying to be as helpful as I can. turbocharging a flat engine is a major project, and the NA 2.2 is not so great a platform to begin with. you'd be better off with NA mods. the NA guys like their cars just fine.

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 7:25 am

I feel I should point out that subafreak is currently running a plain ol' EJ22 with a turbo from an EJ22T in his Loyale. I think he's even still using stock EJ22 engine management, too.

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 8:02 am

Don't go by the HP numbers for the N/A - they are more powerful than that and get faster with age so ignore contemporary acceleration results, too. They really come into their own in foul weather (like the snow/slush currently outside) or dirt roads. Even fwd will embarrass a lot of 4wd SUVs.

That said, for all the work and parts you'd have to get to turbo an N/A you could just get an all-inclusive EJ22T engine deal and drop it in much easier. I got everything from the throttle body to the turbo for $750 (didn't get the crossmember, though).

Steve

IggDawg · Post by **IggDawg** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:17 pm

vrg3 wrote:I feel I should point out that subafreak is currently running a plain ol' EJ22 with a turbo from an EJ22T in his Loyale. I think he's even still using stock EJ22 engine management, too.

no kidding? props to him. People who soup up the old EA series subies are kickass in my book. that thing must scream.

Post by **Legacy777** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 3:45 pm

Igg,

I have to disagree with you that the EJ22 motors don't respond well to turbo charging. They respond quite well, and are quite durable. However you are right in saying that they don't handle lots of boost well. You can probably safely get away with 5-6psi of boost on a n/a EJ22 motor.

Big killer on the turbo swaps is timing. You MUST do something to control the timing advance under boost. Do that and you'll be golden. I say that because Rod had first hand experience on his EJ22 he turbo'd. Timing advance was the killer, however he was up around 12 psi and running alcohol injection. Also, Al confirmed the timing issue as well. His new chips have the ability to limit timing advance when used with aftermarket turbo applications.

For the orig poster's question.....if you don't want to spend a lot of money....just drive the thing....you can't do much without spending some money.

ub_imprezzed · Post by **ub_imprezzed** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 1:25 am

well, im not saying i dont wanna spend any money, just not a whole lot, and all i am looking to run is around 5-6 psi anyway, so the wrx stock turbo manifold will bolt right up to the ej22 na motor?? thats good news, and also, what is the slection of turbochargers that will bolt up to that manifold?? i will most likely use the wrx turbo also if i can find one...

oh, and as far as the timing control, all u need is an msd btm, they are cheap and work well!

i am just looking for a little boost in power as these wagons arent very quick at all.

and also, as far as intercoolers and intercooler piping, i have pretty much became a pro at that with custom fabbing, so...

oh, i do have a merkur xr4ti turbo too, i would consider using that, but not sure about fitment issues and the chances of finding a t3 flanged manifold also... thanks for your help guys, i appreciate it.....

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 1:36 am

"wrx stock turbo manifold will bolt right up to the ej22 na motor?"

Yeah but the new motor/manifold combo will no longer bolt to the cross member

"turbochargers that will bolt up to that manifold?"
Good luck on getting the intake piping to work. Go look a someones WRX and you will see what I mean. The inlet/outlet of the turbo is going to be in a strange position.

"as far as the timing control, all u need is an msd"
RRRRIIIIIGGGHHHHTTT, you go buy one and install it. When you come back here because the CEL is on and the engine doesnt run we will see.

Your best source for information would be to read about the home made 2.5 turbos since a good portion of the information is applicable.

ub_imprezzed · Post by **ub_imprezzed** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:07 am

damn, dude, dont jump on me because i dont know everything about a damn subaru, did you know everything when you first got into this?? no, ok then.. anyways, when only running minimal boost, such as 4-5 psi, I would think you could just run a little colder plug, couldnt you? maybe 2 steps colder or so, and it has to be possible to fabricate a cross member, right? anyone have a pic of what they look like by chance?

and if they were to make this generally same motor with a turbo system on it from the factory, then obviously there are ways to get it to work, is is at all possible to use the ecu, injectors, etc from a turbo legacy?? or is that too hard to come across? thanks

what exactly makes the btm run a cel anyway?

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:25 am

ub_imprezzed: Sorry if you felt I was attacking, I didnt mean it that way.

I cant type the exact details without searching for information on the forums myself so I wont try to pretend. Basically the way the Subaru engine control controlls ignition and watches for misfire makes it very hard to change anything. Even cams with slightly different overlap can cause a CEL.

Even though the EJ22T is the same in overall design as the NA version too many items are changed on a turbo engine to make the swap easy. In the end its easier just to swap a turbo block into the car. Id say more items are different between the two than are the same. Stuff you wouldnt realize is different like:
Water and Oil pump
Radiator
Cross member and sway bar
Air conditioning line

Many changes are made to any lines with air on a turbo car so that areas dont see pressure. Idle control, PCV valve/crank breather tubes and all the other accessory that run from vacuum. A good example is the 2.5 turbo cars around that are running POSITIVE PRESSURE to the brake booster!

ub_imprezzed · Post by **ub_imprezzed** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:48 am

positive pressure, wow, thats always a good sign i guess... haha

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:14 am

Uh, an MSD BTM would work very well on a 90-94 Legacy.

The problems you're thinking of, ciper, are all with OBD-II Subaru ECUs. Our ECUs don't even watch for misfire.

And you don't need to worry about all those differences if you're just bolting a turbo onto an EJ22. For example, the oil pump should be fine. The stock radiator and air conditioning line will work even if they're not ideal.

There are 2.5 turbo cars running around with positive pressure to the brake booster? Why would the owners remove the check valve that's built into every stock brake booster hose?

Idle control should be more or less unaffected by turbocharging, as far as I can see -- why would it matter?

Post by **Legacy777** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:24 am

The normal MSD Dis 2 won't give you the kind of control you're looking for, but the more expensive one will. Rod G has one, and you can adjust timing with it.

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:46 am

See thats what I get for listening to people who havn't actually tried it. I should have learned that by now. That sort of makes me angry since I was looking for a way to change spark timing way back when. I even spent money on a S-ITC and ended up selling it afterwards.

So the BTM device connects between the ignitor and coil like the DIS-2?

Doesnt make sense to buy this though. Figure the price of
fuel controller
Knock monitor
MSD 6btm
boost controller

It would be cheaper just to get stand along engine management!

Post by **Legacy777** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 4:09 am

this is the one I was meaning

http://msdignition.com/ignition_26.htm

not sure on price.....but yeah I would tend to agree with you, stand alone would give you a better all in one package...

ub_imprezzed · Post by **ub_imprezzed** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 4:20 am

yea, depending on cash flow i guess, it takes a lot more to learn everything on a standalone, but like me with my Hondata, it sooo pays off,

another thing when turboing this legacy, would i be able to just run the legacy turbo ecu? or will i have to run an fmu setup?

also, how sensative are the map sensors in these cars?? hondas once they see ~ 11 psi or so, they become worthless.

basically for what i want to do, i will have to worry about just feeding her enough fuel, prolly just using an fmu or the legacy ecu if possible, and possibly that msd btm, unless the legacy ecu will take care of timing retard per pound of boost????

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 4:51 am

You might be able to run a Legacy Turbo ECU if you used injectors from an EJ22T and got the appropriate MAF sensor. You'd need to install the pressure sensor and pressure exchange solenoid, and the boost control solenoid, and run the wires for them to the ECU. You'd also have to switch the ECU's cam and crank sensor wires, since they're reversed on the turbo. That would approximate the correct fueling and timing (including on-boost retard). It would only be approximate, though, since your engine has higher compression than an EJ22T. You'd probably want a little more fuel and/or a little less advance. An FMU alone (that's just an RRFPR, right?) might do it.

The Legacy Turbo pressure sensor (the non-turbo doesn't have one) can read up to about 14 psi. The EJ22T ECU cuts fuel as soon as it sees a reading above about 13 psi held for longer than 3 seconds. But the ECU doesn't use the MAP sensor as the primary source for fueling calculations; it has an airflow sensor it uses instead. I think that's different from the Hondas you're used to. This means that an incorrect pressure sensor reading isn't usually the end of the world.

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:27 pm

vrg3: So in the end he swapped half the items from a legacy turbo, still doesnt run exactly right and has less power? Does anyone see what Im getting at?

Brat4by4 · Post by **Brat4by4** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:30 pm

How about this, correctly done, long-time boosted EJ25...

http://www.lersoc.com/viewtopic.php?t=1772

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:52 pm

The MAF sensor isn't turbo-specific; you can find it on some 1990 5MT non-turbos. And if you wanted to you could adapt Chrysler pressure exchange solenoids and MAP sensors, which are easily available cheaply. You could omit the boost control solenoid and replace it with a power resistor, and use other forms of boost control.

The injectors and ECU would be the only parts that would have to come from a Legacy Turbo.

And swapping these pieces on is a lot, lot easier than swapping a whole engine.

The engine could potentially make a little bit more power than the EJ22T because of the higher compression, especially off-boost.

ciper, you're right that using an actual EJ22T would be very straightforward and result in very few things to worry about. But that doesn't mean it's the only reasonable way to get a turbocharged BF.

ub_imprezzed, I think using EJ22T engine management would work pretty well, but you could probably do pretty well with less cost by just using a rising rate fuel pressure regulator and an MSD unit to retard on boost. Wouldn't be perfect (since the timing maps in the ECU still come into play and aren't perfect), but it could be cheaper and more accessible.

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Questions on turbocharging a 90 legacy ls wagon.....

Questions on turbocharging a 90 legacy ls wagon.....