Which motor oil for EJ22

[Buffman]

I think the real life difference between synthetics is negligible outside of a racetrack and no marketing department lit will convince me otherwise. Maybe Royal Purple or whatever's the best, but with how my engine looked with Mobil 1 changed every 7500-10,000 miles I don't see an advantage. And I don't necessarily think the results would've been much different with any other synthetic. Were I ever rich and stupid enough to buy something gay like a Bugatti Veyron to drive in heavy summer traffic, I might care about the differences then, but this isn't the first thread on this topic and how far it's gone is ridiculous (I recognize my contributing to it). We're talking about a pretty unstressed 2.2 engine, here. I only bother with the synthetic for the longer change intervals.

The problem with what you're stating is just pure opinion, No factual basis. No one type of Oil (say Mobil 1 vs Castrol Syntec) is the same as the next. They all have proprietary (sp) formulas. They are all going to perform differently in a given engine. Whether just driven everyday or at the racetrack.

You state how your engine looked. Looks are not everything. Show us some Used Oil Analysis' that show low wear numbers, that back up your chosen OCI. Some people like to say I change my oil when it starts getting dark. While the oil may be getting dirty, without a UOA, that person is just blindly guessing that the life of their oil is used up.

That's why I gave my wife's car as an example. I found a conventional oil that gave better wear numbers with a longer oil change interval than someone running Mobil 1 in the same engine (similiar climates and driving routine) for a shorter oil change.

Today any API SM rated OIL will be fine for use even in older cars as long as they don't have flat tappet cams.

Care to explain this? Many-many OHC and DOHC engines still use a sliding metal, non-hydraulic valve opening mechanism. Including Subaru. They don't call it flat-tappet anymore (we call it shim-over-bucket), but functionally it's still the same.

I'm not up to speed on all the Subie engines, but I thought the little 2.2L N/A motor in my 92 used a Hydraulic style lash adjuster. Have to forgive me but I'm used to pushrod engines.

Older API cert oils SL and before usually have higher levels of ZDDP in them. ZDDP is a very good additive for use in cars that employ a flat tappet style lifter/cam assembly

[evolutionmovement]

My point is the differences are irrelevant. If after 250k it looks good, how much better is it really going to be. Synthetics are all going to be as acceptable as any other for these cars and any formulation stuff is effectively PR to sell overpriced oil to people who don't need it. Once again, for an engine that lives a more stressed life, it might be important, but anyone worrying this much about that FOR THESE CARS needs more problems in their life. These oils all have to pass the same stringent tests. I seriously doubt any one synthetic oil will be the cause of engine failure before other problems or natural age and mileage kill the car. I think anyone ordering special synthetics online over locally available for these cars should donate the extra money to charity instead - it'll do more good.

A Snap-On and a Craftsman ratchet will do the same job to the same level. That the Snap-On might be easier in your hand doesn't get the bolt on or off any different. A cheap generic, on the other hand, might break on you, but there's a certain level of quality that, once exceeded, is unnecessary.

[Buffman]

My point is the differences are irrelevant

No, no they're not. Maybe we're in different parts of the ball field, or something. All oils are not created equal...

If after 250k it looks good, how much better is it really going to be.

I don't know. Who knows if you found an Oil early on that produced great UOAs, that engine could have looked brand new at 300+K.

any formulation stuff is effectively PR to sell overpriced oil to people who don't need it.

The garbage fake tests and the special effects on TV is PR. Formulations are proprietary and are not openly shared. I'm not talking about all the BS words they make up for the Adds, I'm talking about Basestocks, and the additives, etc.

Once again, for an engine that lives a more stressed life, it might be important, but anyone worrying this much about that FOR THESE CARS needs more problems in their life.

You might be surprised. Why go 3K on an oil, if you did a UOA and proved the oil was good for at least 6K.

These oils all have to pass the same stringent tests.

Yeah they all have to pass the API tests to be certified, but take a peak at the back of some oil bottles sometimes. You'll see other tests that particular oil has passed and is certified. Such as tests from GM, VW, MB, Porcshe, etc..

I seriously doubt any one synthetic oil will be the cause of engine failure before other problems or natural age and mileage kill the car.

While they are few far and inbetween their have been engine failures directly related to a specific type of oil used.

I think anyone ordering special synthetics online over locally available for these cars should donate the extra money to charity instead - it'll do more good.

I never said for the original Poster to go out and buy Amsoil or Royal Purple. Again like I stated, pretty much if they don't care that much a 3-5K OCI with current APi oils and call it a day.

www.bobistheoilguy.com

Where all those people with all kinds of cars (whether a yugo or a ferrari) talk about oil.

[Imprezive]

ummmm, are you guys serious?

10-30w oil if you are just driving around in a street car. If you have a turbo, change it more often.

change the weight depending on your car's mileage and the temperature range that it will be operating in. Obviously a new car will be happier with 5-30w rather than 20-50w

Higher quality synthetics like Redline or Royal Purple should be used in cars that are being beat on regularly, be it at the track or on the street.

with all due respect, this isn't rocket science.

[evolutionmovement]

Exactly. He must work for an oil mfg. It's ridiculous and he hardly reads my posts, yet argues against a straw man. I never go less than 7500 miles on an oil change and often 10k. Maybe something would have made 300k, probably the oil I was using as well, maybe some "inferior" brand would have. The lower quality oil might have been good enough to do the job. Point is: off the shelf oil works and for the original poster to worry too much about it is a waste of life and money. I'm done, counter common sense with any numbers you want.

[Buffman]

ummmm, are you guys serious?

10-30w oil if you are just driving around in a street car. If you have a turbo, change it more often.

change the weight depending on your car's mileage and the temperature range that it will be operating in. Obviously a new car will be happier with 5-30w rather than 20-50w

Higher quality synthetics like Redline or Royal Purple should be used in cars that are being beat on regularly, be it at the track or on the street.

with all due respect, this isn't rocket science.

Never said it was rocket science. It's simple research and analysis. Blindly recommending an oil based on your experience without any factual information to back it up is pure ignorance on anyone's part. The point I was trying to make was that evolutionmovement thinks that the difference between synthetic oils and conventional in a daily driven application are negligible. When in fact that's complete hogwash. Synthetics have many advantages over conventional oils, whether it be used in a race car or your daily driven subaru. One advantage is resistance to thermal breakdown. My LT1 without an oil cooler can run as hot as 250*F OIL temps in the summer time at highway speeds. Synthetics are great for temps near 300*F. I wouldn't trust a conventional with those temps.

Exactly. He must work for an oil mfg. It's ridiculous and he hardly reads my posts, yet argues against a straw man. I never go less than 7500 miles on an oil change and often 10k. Maybe something would have made 300k, probably the oil I was using as well, maybe some "inferior" brand would have. The lower quality oil might have been good enough to do the job. Point is: off the shelf oil works and for the original poster to worry too much about it is a waste of life and money. I'm done, counter common sense with any numbers you want.

No I don't work for an oil manufacturer.

Hardly reads your posts? I quoted specific parts of your posts. Again you're the one who doesn't read my posts. Why don't you look quite a few posts back on my recommendation which is basically the same thing you've already said.

. If you're just going to change your oil every 3000 miles and don't have some high performance engine, any current SM rated oil will do just fine. However, when looking for reduced wear numbers, longer change intervals, and better protection against thermal breakdown, then it pays to research what oils will work better in a given engine.

I'm not even trying to push synthetics or anything. Here read what I wrote earlier.

For my wife's 2.2L OHV cavalier, on UOA i've found Mobil Clean 5000 10w30 works great. Low wear numbers, low if any fuel dilution, good amount of additives left in at the time of change. Typically take it to 6000-6500 miles no problem. Based on some of my UOAs comparing others with the same motor, my UOAs for that car were better than someone running Mobil 1 for LESS miles...

Again complete ignorance IMO just like many others on the internet that blindly recommend oils, oil weights, and oil change intervals because it "worked" for them, and their engine was "clean" when they tore it apart. No factual data to back anything up.

[Legacy777]

Buffman,

I don't necessarily disagree with you. However, the bottom line is going to be personal preference/experience. You may call it ignorance.......whatever.

Let's say a relatively large user base that drive subarus up into the 200,000+ mile range use conventional oil and change their oil between 3000 & 7500 miles and have no problems. If I were a "newbie" asking the question, I would certainly take those opinions into account. There definitely is something to be said for experience. I understand everyone has an opinion and they may vary....but I would hope the reader would be able to use some common sense to make their final decision vs. relying soley on one person's experience/thoughts/comments.

Additionaly, certain people can be more enthusiastic about certain things/issues then other people. Some people it's engine oil, some people it's gear oil, suspension, etc. Hell, I'm running a very specific ratio of distilled water, antifreeze, & water wetter in my AWIC. To some, they may look at that and say why bother just stick some water from the garden hose in there.

You've made your recommendation, as well as others. It's up to the original poster to decide what he wants to do.

[94.GT.Wagon]

This flat tappet, modern motor oil debate is all the rage over on the International Full Size Jeep Association site where we all have old school dinosaur AMC V-8s. I don't claim to understand all the facts, but as I understand, older motor oils used to contain alot more zinc. Zinc is apparently good for lifters and cams (break-in lube I believe usually has alot) but is bad for catalytic converters, so in the interest of emissions most of the zinc has been removed from modern oils leaving lifters and cams in older vehicles unprotected. I run Shell Rotella T diesel engine oil in my Wagoneer because it supposedly still has higher zinc levels.

Like I said, I'm not claiming any of this as fact, just what I've heard.

Should be able to search for lots of good discussions on the matter here:
http://www.ifsja.org/index.html

[Buffman]

Todd the zinc they're refering to is commonly called ZDDP..

www.bobistheoilguy.com is one of the best internet sources for oil, grease, coolant information.

[Imprezive]

No matter how much analysis is done it doesn't change the fact that these are old street cars, not Formula 1 cars. Technical data is always good, but there is also a general consensus on what is good and what isn't.

Buffman, you call me ignorant for making some generalized suggestions. Had I aimed the gun at you directly? Take a deep breath, I wasn't attacking you or anyone else, so chill out. You, nor anyone else, has the right to start calling people "ignorant" or using any other type of negative adjectives.

I feel that either this thread should be locked, or the bickering has to stop, everyone has their input so lets leave it at that and, like Josh said, leave the rest up to the original poster to make his decision given the information provided.

This isn't what legacycentral is about, if you want to bitch at other people go to NASIOC. If you want to be helpful and considerate then change your attitude.

[Buffman]

No matter how much analysis is done it doesn't change the fact that these are old street cars, not Formula 1 cars. Technical data is always good, but there is also a general consensus on what is good and what isn't.

Buffman, you call me ignorant for making some generalized suggestions. Had I aimed the gun at you directly? Take a deep breath, I wasn't attacking you or anyone else, so chill out. You, nor anyone else, has the right to start calling people "ignorant" or using any other type of negative adjectives.

I feel that either this thread should be locked, or the bickering has to stop, everyone has their input so lets leave it at that and, like Josh said, leave the rest up to the original poster to make his decision given the information provided.

This isn't what legacycentral is about, if you want to bitch at other people go to NASIOC. If you want to be helpful and considerate then change your attitude.

I guess my choice of words yesterday weren't the greatest. Sometimes at work I get in hurry making posts and don't choose the right words. I wasn't trying to be negative to you or evo. Uneducated would have been a better choice.

Imprez as I've already stated, go to www.bobistheoilguy.com. No matter the car type, engine type or age, you will find members there questing to learn/find out what oil is going to be a good choice for their vehicle. There is technical data that is available to everyone one there and personal experience from posters which from both can be used to make "general consensus" about a particular oil for a vehicle.

As I stated if the general consensus was that brand X was good for 5K in the 2.2L, what would be the harm in doing a UOA and finding out that Brand X still had plently of TBN left and low wear numbers and you could go another 5K on the same oil change??

My main gripe was Evo's statements regarding negiligble differences between a synthetic and conventional oil in a daily driven vehicle.

[Imprezive]

I understand where you are coming,

I would assume what evo was saying is that if you have a perfectly stock older car and you just want to do an oil change you could use either a dino oil or a synthetic type and not FEEL any difference.

So for your average commuter type car, with an average driver who just needs a car that runs, it isn't as much of a concern whether you nitpick it or not.

you know what I mean?

But! I agree, there are many differences between synthetic and traditional oil. Thats why you use dino oil when you have just rebuilt an engine so that the rings seat and whatnot. From my EXPERIENCE with race cars I know how quickly dino oil can break down under such hard conditions.

[Buffman]

Yeah perfectly agree. I stated such way back in the posts about the average Joe oil changes

[major_tom]

Anyone have specific recommendations on higher mileage engines? My next service is due at 220k

I plan on running 10w30 for the summer here in Colorado. It gets hot but the car will be in the mountains, too, and at night the temps can still get down there. 10w40 seems like overkill. I've been recommended by the car's previous mechanic that I baby it and change the oil every 3000 miles to keep it in nice shape, but beyond that, I've received no particular instruction.

Thoughts?

[James614]

I personally would run 10w-30, and change religiously. Whether its 3 5 or 7k probably won't matter much if you don't beat on it, just do what makes you feel warm and fuzzy.

[Legacy777]

Yeah....10w30 is what I have run year round and when living up north or down south. No need to baby it IMO.