Reluctance to start/fueling issues

[entirelyturbo]

Did some searching, and couldn't find any similar symptoms.

It's a good thing I have the wagon, coz I would have completely lost my patience with Patti and either ripped her apart and parted her out, or sold her.

This happens roughly every 5th time I start the car, although there's no noticeable pattern to it. Usually it starts right up, but sometimes it will just sit there and crank and eventually turn over reluctantly.

I think the best way would be to let you see for yourself.

Here's how the car normally starts (right-click, save as, small vid, 56k should be okay)
http://www.thawa.net/gallery/albums/Videos/000_0583.mov

It's usually two revs and then it turns over...

But every once in a while, it will do something like this:
http://www.thawa.net/gallery/albums/Videos/000_0580.mov

It's not comforting, me thinking that one day it's just going to keep cranking and never start...

I have replaced the coolant temp sensor, yes (assuming the one with the brown plug is the one for the ECU), I've also replaced the spark plugs recently, as well as the fuel filter. The car runs magnificently once it starts.

I should add that it started this right after I replaced the fuel filter about 2 months ago. I did the fuel-pump unplug to relieve pressure, and it's been doing this since then.

Any ideas? Please help. Thanks!

[evolutionmovement]

The temp sensor may be the other one, but I can't remember and I'm too lazy to go into my kitchen. Definitely sounds like the temp sensor.

Steve

[entirelyturbo]

I used this part # from Josh's post in the reference thread:

Coolant Temp sensor: 22630AA041

That's the one I just replaced.

[dzx]

The one with the brown plug on the coolant bridge is the coolant temp sensor.

Push in the gas pedal when you start cranking it and it wont turn over next time and see if that starts it faster. That might give you a better clue as to what it is as well.

[free5ty1e]

Have you checked under your backseat? The fuel pump wiring has a connector there that is prone to failure. It has enough resistance to burn up over time - at one point it caused a similar condition to the one you're describing. Then it completely burned the connection, and it took us a while to find the problem. We re-soldered the burnt connections and bypassed the connector, and now it always gets fuel...

[Legacy777]

I also found that the ground for the pump wasn't great, and I think that is what leads to the connector/wiring heating up.

[entirelyturbo]

I yanked my back seat up, and I guess this time I wasn't paying attention when I reconnected the plug. There is a piece of foam coming off the carpet that I presume is supposed to go underneath the connector so that it doesn't get squashed into the shelf underneath the seat when someone sits there. But even without anyone sitting there, with the plugs not under that cushion, they were in direct contact with that shelf. That shouldn't matter, but I guess maybe the plugs and wires are showing their age, and possibly grounding out through that shelf. Who knows.

Anyway, I put the plugs on top of that cushion, and it's started fine since. That's presumptious of course, I still need to keep driving the car to find out for sure.

Josh, is there any reasonable way to improve the fuel pump ground?

[free5ty1e]

Well that was a stab in the dark... I'm glad it seems to have helped the diagnosis in the right direction.

[vrg3]

The fuel pump's black wire is the ground. You could try splicing your own ground wire into there. If you're going to bother, though, I'd say to run a new +12v wire too. The fuel pump wiring is a lot like the headlight wiring -- the factory made it at least a little thinner than they probably should have.

Also, is this Patti's factory fuel pump, or have you replaced it?

[Legacy777]

Josh, is there any reasonable way to improve the fuel pump ground?

Yeah, just add another ground. You may want to check the resistance of the ground lead on the chassis side to a bolt or known good ground source. It should be 0 ohms, if it's not the ground probably isn't so hot.

You can see pics of where I grounded mine in this thread
http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?t=24723

[schspeedster]

I have this problem on my 93 n/a, usually starts & runs great but every so often it cranks for 10-20-30 seconds with no start under the following conditions:

parked outdoors below about 40F (car is usually parked in unheated garage and starts OK in there), & left sitting for hours.

Service history shows the car was taken to dealer for what sounds like same problem by previous owner, fuel injectors were cleaned, alternator replaced.

I have replaced the coolant temp sensor and cleaned all underhood ground connections with Dremel tool & wire brush, coated with NO-OX-ID grease before reassembly. http://www.sanchem.com/ox.html

Pulled back seat cushion, no visible damage to fuel pump connector, detached and applied NO-OX-ID to pins before plugging back in. Left seat cushion off and wiggled the wire while cranking last time fault occurred did not seem to affect anything.

Unfortunately can never reproduce the problem in garage and it starts fine after cranking awhile so no idea how to test even to see if fuel or ignition problem. Seems to be occurring more frequently, hopefully it will not get bad enough to drain the battery before itll start when I need to drive it home, if that occurs next diagnostic tool will be a hammer: applied to every surface of the engine, body & glass, then off to the junkyard.

[schspeedster]

Lots of sputtering smoke + nasty smell when it finally catches, maybe unburned fuel ? Possible for ignitor coil crank sensor or ecu to develop thermal intermittent?

[entirelyturbo]

The fuel pump's black wire is the ground. You could try splicing your own ground wire into there. If you're going to bother, though, I'd say to run a new +12v wire too. The fuel pump wiring is a lot like the headlight wiring -- the factory made it at least a little thinner than they probably should have.

I might do that. I can just put quick-disconnects in place of the factory connectors, and I could also wrap the loom up in electrical tape for extra insulation. I'm still an electrical n00b, what gauge wire should I be using to replace it?

Also, is this Patti's factory fuel pump, or have you replaced it?

Factory. Never done anything other than unplug it.

[douglas vincent]

I vote for coolant temp sensor.

[gt2.5turbo]

i had a hard time starting mine for a while and it was very tempermental and now with a new coolent temp sensor it doesnts take but a split second to turn right over

[vrg3]

You might consider just replacing the fuel pump. You have, what, 150 thousand miles on it? They do go bad, and it's no fun to have to change a fuel pump -- even on a Legacy -- in the middle of nowhere halfway through a road trip when the trunk is full of all your belongings and it's snowing on you. Just ask my brother.

Yes, you can use quick-disconnects; I would suggest you use the "Express-Seal" type that has heat shrink and sealant built in so that it's water-tight on the wire end. The connector end can be made water resistant just by using dielectric grease when you make the connection.

If you're bothering to run new wire, I'd say to use 10 AWG. Parts Express has some very nice flexible rugged 10-gauge wire.

[Legacy777]

When I added my ground wire, I used 12 gauge, but as Vikash said, it may be worth using something larger. I wonder if I could tap into my amp power wire...haha.

BTW, I really don't think having a water tight connection for this connector is that big a deal. The stock one isn't water tight, and the connector is inside the car....under the seat. So unless you're taking the car swimming, it should be fine.

[vrg3]

For the extra ~87 cents, I would go ahead and make it water resistant. Condensation, spilling things on the seat, accidentally leaving the window open, getting into the car after walking through heavy precipitation (frozen or otherwise) and other things of that nature can slowly cause trouble.

[Legacy777]

Oh I agree with you....if you don't have anything and you need to buy the material and can do one or the other....by all means go with the water resistant one.

In my case, I had normal connectors sitting in my garage....so that's what I went with.

[entirelyturbo]

I vote for coolant temp sensor.

I have replaced the coolant temp sensor

Thanks though...

So far, I haven't had any starting issues, so it does appear that moving those connectors back over the cushion might have done it, thusly pointing to a poor electrical connection.

I'll probably go with the water-tight connectors, it's awfully humid down here.

Do these wires come straight off the ign switch, or are there other connectors somewhere down the line? (i.e. could I ever change out the wires I'm gonna hack up back to OEM-spec if I ever want to?)

Vikash, call me weird, but I kinda wanna keep the factory fuel pump until it's dead, just to get the full use of it.

Thanks again for the help guys!

[vrg3]

So far, I haven't had any starting issues, so it does appear that moving those connectors back over the cushion might have done it, thusly pointing to a poor electrical connection.

I'll probably go with the water-tight connectors, it's awfully humid down here.

Cool.

Do these wires come straight off the ign switch, or are there other connectors somewhere down the line? (i.e. could I ever change out the wires I'm gonna hack up back to OEM-spec if I ever want to?)

The pump is powered through the fuel pump relay.

But don't tear out wires... Just have the existing wire trip a new relay that you install. Going back to OEM spec would be easy.

Vikash, call me weird, but I kinda wanna keep the factory fuel pump until it's dead, just to get the full use of it.

Could I at least convince you to purchase a spare and keep it in the car?

[Legacy777]

There's another connector between the one under the seat and the fuel pump relay. It's the blue one under the dash next to the ECU.

[entirelyturbo]

The pump is powered through the fuel pump relay.

Duh. I kinda forgot that. See what I mean about the electrical n00b-ness?

But don't tear out wires... Just have the existing wire trip a new relay that you install. Going back to OEM spec would be easy.

I'm not sure I follow this, another relay in addition to the regular one or replacing the regular one? I'm not kidding about the n00b-ness

Could I at least convince you to purchase a spare and keep it in the car?

Once I get the money

There's another connector between the one under the seat and the fuel pump relay. It's the blue one under the dash next to the ECU.

So if I wanted to, I could untangle that set of wires from the rest of the harness underneath the dash and follow it back to under the seat, and replace that whole thing?

[Legacy777]

So if I wanted to, I could untangle that set of wires from the rest of the harness underneath the dash and follow it back to under the seat, and replace that whole thing?

You could try I suppose....I don't think it's worth it. Just ground wire back there.

[vrg3]

First look over this page:

http://www.partsexpress.com/resources/relays.html

So, get a good Bosch-type automotive relay.

The fuel pump has a blue-with-yellow-stripe wire and a black wire. Cut the blue-with-yellow-stripe wire.

Connect the car side of this wire to the relay's 85 terminal.

Connect the pump side of this wire to the relay's 30 terminal.

Run a heavy-gauge fused wire from the alternator or positive battery terminal to the relay's 87 terminal.

Connect the relay's 86 terminal to ground (any ol' ground).

Splice a heavy-gauge wire into the fuel pump's black wire and run it to a good ground.

That'd do it. To go all the way, you would actually use a heavy-gauge wire to go from terminal 30 to the positive terminal of the fuel pump, but that might not be practical since you'd have to modify the pump bracket to allow the wire through while sealing, and use wire with gasoline-resistant insulation.