100% gasoline good stuff

[jefferson]

Coming home late Christmas eve I needed to fill up and the only place I found was a BP station. I used to use them and they had 92 octane then. All I saw was 91 this time. Their fuel at this station is 100% gasoline, no ethanol. In the short drive home I could tell the difference in the way the car ran. It was smoother overall and pulled over hills better. Haven't had any rough idling either. It has made a noticeable difference and it is all good. I got a gift certificate towards a dyno pull for Christmas and I will fill the tank with the good stuff before hand. The price is a little steep, but the benefits are worth it.
I also noticed the same effect on my ZRX when I filled up there once. The bike has definite driveability issues and I have had the carbs off too many times trying to find the source of the problem. Turns out all I need to do is use fuel with no ethanol. The bike ran great when I fueled there. I sure wish the epa would drown in an ethanol bath they like the stuff so much. I hate it.

Jeff

[beatersubi]

Ethanol contains less energy per volume than gasoline. Therefor, more is required for the same amount of power output. Resulting in worse fuel mileage. Suck on that, EPA.
Alcohol-based fuels are also hygroscopic, meaning they absorb water. Much more care needs be taken in its handling in order to keep water out of the fuel, which standard automotive fuel filters don't separate, BTW.
Ethanol is a all-around gov't fail, IMHO.
[/rant]

[cj91legss]

Do we have 100% fuel here in WA Stephen?

[beatersubi]

Do we have 100% fuel here in WA Stephen?

I don't know. Honestly, I've stopped looking. The 76 station in Auburn that sell 116 from the pump probably does. I usually just buy gas at Costco because its what I can afford.

[jefferson]

The government doesn't understand that we are paying higher food prices because they are taking a food crop and turning it into fuel and it is mandated by the fools. I would much rather the free market decide the prices and keep the ethanol out of our fuel.

Jeff

[cj91legss]

I get gas at shell. Its the only gas that seems to keep the car running decently.

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[beatersubi]

The government doesn't understand that we are paying higher food prices because they are taking a food crop and turning it into fuel and it is mandated by the fools. I would much rather the free market decide the prices and keep the ethanol out of our fuel.

Jeff

And subsidizing it with tax dollars.

[jefferson]

I'm pretty sure the subsidies went away within the last year which was a big step in the right direction. I can say with utmost certainty that the epa will never do away with the requirement for it in our fuel. They were petitioned by a number of governors to suspend the requirement because of the drought and the need for the grain to feed the cattle. They were turned down. No accounting for logic or common sense in Washington.

Jeff

[mike-tracy]

CJ et all, check out http://pure-gas.org/ to find stations near you.

I did notice an improvement with ethanol free gas, but it wasn't worth the 40c/gal price increase over my normal "top tier" gas. Now that we are on winter blend fuel I'll prob try the pure gas again. I think you need to reset the ECU when you switch to a tankful of pure to notice, or at least I did.

[cj91legss]

Ill look into that. Id like to see how the car would act on ethenol free gas.

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[Legacy777]

I'll share my two cents from my experience in working in the oil & gas industry. We handle midstream & downstream processes, so we do everything but get stuff out of the ground and oil refining. Ethanol was big several years ago when oil prices were so high. That in combination with the subsidies really fueled the demand and growth of ethanol. Ethanol is used as an oxygenate to improve and promote complete combustion. MTBE was used as an oxygenate in the 90's, but was then banned for use in the US due to ground water contamination.

Anyway, I do believe the ethanol subsidies have expired and with oil prices coming down, ethanol is not really a viable option on its own. A lot of the ethanol plants and commercial push to use ethanol has died off. It's being used where mandated by the EPA. Typically non-attainment areas (cities & urban areas) will all be non-attainment and will have nothing but E10 gasoline. You've got to get out in the boonies to find real gasoline any more. It's just not legal to sell it in the non-attainment areas. This link has some more info and a map

http://www.utc.edu/Research/CETE/altfuels.php

I'm sure this is dated now, but it gives you an idea

[wtdash]

What am I missing? E10 gets worse MPG than 100% fuel.

Doesn't that mean I'm using more E10 (and more fuel) for a given distance? If so, am I still using/burning/carbon footprinting less overall fuel? If not, then does the 'oxygenate' properties of corn make up for the extra fuel burned?

What about the cost to get the corn to the refinery? Diesel/gas for the tractors/harvesters to grow/harvest it and the trucks to transport it?

Corn also (last I read) requires more than most crops of herbicides/pesticides/fertilizers....I believe lots of which is petroleum-based?

And the cost increases of wheat? My uncle is wheat farmer..the guy has made big $$$ since corn production has limited supply of wheat....so food prices have gone up correspondingly - as noted above.

I'm not being sarcastic....just not clear on the real savings.

Td

[James614]

There is no real savings. It's a misguided move mandated by people who don't understand the issue. The fact that people stood to make a lot of money off of it probably had something to do with it too.

I'm curious to know why the heavy price hike on ethanol-free gas. My guess is that the ethanol portion isn't subject to the fuel tax, or a much smaller tax.

[beatersubi]

I'm not being sarcastic....just not clear on the real savings.

Td

Saving some congressman's reputation for being 'green', and having to raise as much for his re-election campaign.

[Legacy777]

I'm not being sarcastic....just not clear on the real savings.

Td

I never said government/regulations made sense.... In fact, they are usually quite the opposite and make no logical sense at all.

Todd, you should just blindly take our government's word for everything they do.....just like all the lemings out there...

[James614]

On the topic of 100% gas being awesome, I noticed a small MPG improvement but no change in how the car ran or drive ability. According to the map Josh posted, we don't even have the stuff in North Carolina. But back in PA I tried it and while I loved the idea and mileage, it didn't make up for the higher price. All cars made since the 80s are required to run on E10, so I don't see why it would make such a difference in some cars.

[entirelyturbo]

I, too, find ethanol practices to be questionable both logically and ethically. But keep in mind, everybody (especially those of you with tuned cars), that ethanol raises your octane.

As Josh and I were discussing here, E10 fuel can raise your octane as much as 1-2 points. That's pretty much enough for my B4 to be getting fuel with a similar octane rating as it was getting in Japan.

It's also why people like Douglas Vincent can get away with more risky tuning measures to make more horsepower. I don't feel like searching, but I seem to recall a thread about him making 400whp on E85. Yeah, it has less energy per unit of volume, but because it's less prone to preignition/detonation, you can turn up your boost and/or advance your timing more confidently.

Oh, and also, I use Top Tier gas exclusively in the B4 now. Not only does it seem to run smoother, but it's also the difference between pinging and no pinging. I would actually hear an occasional ping under boost while using Hess or Sunoco gas, but now that I run Top Tier only, I don't hear any pinging at all anymore...

... and I bring that up because all Top Tier gas is minimum 8% ethanol.

[wtdash]

It depends on how the gasoline is blended at the terminal, but if they blend a 93 octane premium with 10% ethanol, you are likely ending up with at least a 94+ octane premium. 10% ethanol will raise the octane rating 1-2 points.

^So...is this the norm? I'd have thought they used the ethanol to bump up the octane to the rating - not add to it.

Td

[macipusy]

Ethanol is by far my favorite fuel for forced induction applications.

[Legacy777]

Oh, and also, I use Top Tier gas exclusively in the B4 now. Not only does it seem to run smoother, but it's also the difference between pinging and no pinging. I would actually hear an occasional ping under boost while using Hess or Sunoco gas, but now that I run Top Tier only, I don't hear any pinging at all anymore...

... and I bring that up because all Top Tier gas is minimum 8% ethanol.

I've mentioned this before, but this is a good thread to bring it up again. Gasoline is a fungible product or a commodity. For example the Valero (Shell) refinery in Beaumont, TX is producing gasoline that will go into another company's tank farm and pipeline, and as long as the gasoline from BP's refinery is of the same grade and octane, it gets mixed with the stuff from Valero, Exxon, etc.

The ONLY differentiation between retail gasoline (assuming the same grade & octane) is the additive package that gets put in when it's loaded onto the tanker truck at the truck loading rack. The majors, Exxon/Mobil, BP, Shell, Chevron, etc all have their own additive. This is typically referred to as "branded" gasoline. Other retail gasoline stores sell unbranded gasoline. All the terminals where the fuel is loaded onto the truck have an unbranded or "house" additive that gets added to the gasoline. The amount injected is determined by the owner of the truck terminal.

The government has set a minimum additive amount in order to meet emissions requirements. This is called the Lowest Additive Concentration or LAC for short. If you want to fall asleep you can read the regulation from the EPA. The additive amount is typically set by the brand (Exxon, Shell, BP, etc) or by the truck terminal owner. Typically, the branded gasoline has more additive in it then the unbranded gasoline. This is especially true for premium gasoline. For example the treat rates may be the same for all grades of gasoline for the unbranded gasoline, while the treat rate may be one and half to two times more for the premium gasoline sold as "branded" gasoline. Not all of them do that, but that's just an example.

The reason I bring this up is because the whole "Top Tier Gasoline" is a little misleading. Remember Shell's advertising of "Nitrogen Enriched Fuel". That was purely marketing. There was absolutely zero changes in the gasoline or additive before or after that marketing campaign came out.

In addition to the additive, the storage terminal, transport, and retail outlet can have an affect on the gasoline quality. If you have a terminal that is poorly run/maintained, old, or unqualified personnel that could affect the quality of what makes it into your gas tank. Ethanol and mid-grade gas, just like the additive is typically blended right there at the truck rack. You can save yourself some money if you buy mid-grade by filling up with mostly regular and then putting in a splash of premium. You can search online and probably come up with what the ratios are.

The truck drivers will typically have a menu of some sorts where they choose what kind of fuel they want to load, branded 93 with ethanol, unbranded 93 without ethanol, branded 87 with ethanol, unbranded 89 without ethanol, etc.

I guess the main point I was trying to make here is that there are a lot of variables and opportunities along the supply chain for the quality of the gasoline to be compromised. Just because a particular station is a "Top Tier" station doesn't necessarily make their gas better then another top tier station down the road. What terminal the fuel came from, who transported it to the station, and how the station is maintained can all affect the quality. Typically most top tier gasolines will run better in "finnicky" or high strung engines because there is more additive in it then the unbranded gasoline. However for the large majority of us that don't have turbo engines, branded or unbranded gas of the same octane will be plenty sufficient for your engine. The top tier gas may help reduce carbon deposits, but from what I've seen I certainly wouldn't guarantee that.

[Legacy777]

It depends on how the gasoline is blended at the terminal, but if they blend a 93 octane premium with 10% ethanol, you are likely ending up with at least a 94+ octane premium. 10% ethanol will raise the octane rating 1-2 points.

^So...is this the norm? I'd have thought they used the ethanol to bump up the octane to the rating - not add to it.

Td

Todd,

It depends on the area/region and what the refineries are producing. 87 & 92 or 93 octane are the "standard" octane levels for most of the eastern part of the US. Since refineries and pipelines service many different distribution networks and stations it is far more economical to produce the most common grades and blend the additives and oxygenate (ethanol) at the truck rack.

Some markets may have sub-octane gasoline that's around 85 octane. When blended with ethanol, it will meet the minimum 87 octane requirment. I am unaware of any refineries or terminals that do this for premium gasoline though.

Here is the specific definition for sub-octane gasoline:

Sub-octane gasoline in manufactured especially for ethanol blending at the terminal level. Ethanol is added to this fuel to bring it up to octane specification thereby allowing for the capture of ethanol's full octane value.

If you look on the last page of this spec, you'll see the octane tests/requirments for the base sub-octane gasoline and the sub-octane gasoline with 10% ethanol.

This article has some good info on what's called Conventional Gasoline Blending Components (CBOB) & Reformulated Blendstock for Oxygenate Blending (RBOB). It's kind of off topic, but it gives you an idea of the different refining areas/regions and how gasoline can vary depending on where you live.

[mike-tracy]

I noticed in certain higher elevation states, that the octane numbers were a couple points lower. Don't remember the stations saying "85 with Ethanol bringing it up to 87," I believe it was just 85 octane

[wtdash]

Josh,
Thanks for the info.

RE: unbranded gasoline...I'm guessing that applies to our local Fred Meyer, Albertsons and Safeway grocery stores, and Costco gas outlets. Is it likely they are all the same source w/the same additive package? I've never kept track of the trucks that supply them to note whether they are the same.

Also, not in my area but on the coast - Seattle area- they have Arco stations, which are always cheaper than any others, IIRC. Have you heard anything about their gas?

Thanks,
Td

[mike-tracy]

TD, I was told by a gas truck driver that Costco gas is among the best of the cheap ones, due to their generous amount of additives, and the fact that corporate policy has them replacing the pump filters very regularly, due to volume sold.

[Legacy777]

I noticed in certain higher elevation states, that the octane numbers were a couple points lower. Don't remember the stations saying "85 with Ethanol bringing it up to 87," I believe it was just 85 octane

Yeah, the higher elevations don't get as high of octane fuel. My guess is that it may just be the 85 with ethanol, so the actual octane number would be closer to 87. However, like I mentioned, regional refineries will make stuff for their particular market, so I guess it's possible they could make something lower than 85 and then blend the ethanol back in to raise it to 85.