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vrg3, this might be especially for you but everyone is invited to comment: How would the following headlight/lamp upgrades be rated (from best to least best) for best driving visibility and safety --

a--Hella 90mm quad headlamps
b--Cibie CSR headlamps (at Daniel Stern Lighting)
c--OEM stock glass (European?) headlamps (do they exist?)
d--OEM sanded, polished, clear-coated per Legacy777's method with Sylvania Xtravision bulbs and Hella XLS auxiliary lights?

The last option is generally within everyone's reach but I was wondering how that would compare with the first three options.

The best lights I ever had on my car was Marchal's 7-1/2 inch flat-faced, EC code, lead crystal, halogen headlamps on my '64 VW Beetle. It was converted to 12 volts but I kept the 6 volt wiring which was much thicker than the 12 volt system. I LOVED those lights!!! On low beams, with a 55w bulb, it threw an INTENSE, solid beam of light about 8 lanes wide. Aimed properly, it was not blinding to oncoming drivers at all. Aimed too high, and on low beams it blinded everyone coming; in fact, it would be much brighter than everyone else's high beams. (Vrg3, I fully understand what you said in one of your comments about good optics ground into the light is better than just having a higher wattage bulb with poor optics). When I first put them on my car, I had them aimed too high. My friend was driving in front of me and turned off his lights because my lights lit up the road for him better than his high beams.

On high beams, it would light up the top of trees about 20 feet high about 5 car lengths in front, and if you were cresting a hill, you wouldn't be driving down into darkness. On one particular road on a 1-1/2 mile straightaway, the end of the road was lit up and on another stretch, I couldn't figure out what kind of lights were shining in the distance. The "lights" turned out to be reflectors about 5 miles away.

Those Marchal lights came out of the other end of the same factory that produced Cibie lights. They were truly incredible! I wish all of you could experience that kind of visibility I drove with. If we could only have that kind of lighting on our Subies. . .

Anyway, do any of you on the forum have experience with at least two of the options listed above, and can you describe the difference you noticed with the different lights?

Let me first say that I don't have experience on a Legacy with anything other than stock lamps.

Also, let's realize that in North America, 90-91Legacy lights are vastly different from 92-94 Legacy lights. 90-91 lights use a 9004 bulb with a transverse filament (which pretty much guarantees a crappy headlamp), while 92-94 lights use a 9003/H4 bulb and have a harmonized DOT/ECE beam pattern which is (relatively speaking) decent. So basically we have to classify 90-91OEM lamps separately from 92-94 OEM lamps.

Apparently, stock glass lamps were used on cars sold pretty much everywhere except North America. The reflectors in these lamps are chromed plastic, however; not metal. That means they're still unsuitable for overwatt bulbs. I do not know whether the beam pattern differs between 92-94 USDM lights and the corresponding glass-lensed Europe-mainland lights. If it does, the European ones are almost certainly better. If it doesn't, then the only advantage to the glass-lens lights is that glass doesn't yellow with age. Let's also note here that lamps from the UK, Japan, Australia, or New Zealand are not appropriate for use here. Their beams rise to the left, which would blind oncoming traffic as if you had your high beams on. It is possible to use some opaque tape to block off the uprise completely, which eliminates the glare problem. It's still not as good as a proper LHD light though.

The Cibie CSR lights are very good. Anything Daniel Stern recommends and/or sells is going to be good; he is one of the foremost experts on automotive lighting in the world. In fact, most of the things I say about lighting on this BBS probably originated from him. But I thought Cibie CSRs were only available as sealed-beam replacement lights... Isn't that true? That would mean you'd have to fabricate old-style headlight assemblies that could hold and properly aim sealed beams, and then install the CSRs in them, right? That may be very hard to do. The free-form reflector design is quite efficient (way better than the simple parabolic reflectors in OEM BC/BF lights), so you'll get a good deal more light out where you need it, and the beam pattern is excellent. These would be even better than the awesome Marchal lights your Beetle had.

The Hella 90mm lights are very good as well. I have a set of these, though I haven't fit them to my car yet. The low beams are projector beams, which are very efficient, and the high beams are freeform reflectors like the CSRs. Both use H9 bulbs. H9 bulbs were developed relatively recently, and are extremely efficient when compared to other halogen bulbs. The beam pattern on the low beams is a harmonized DOT/ECE pattern, but different from the stock Legacy pattern. It's a "z-beam," meaning it has a horizontal cutoff, but the right-hand side is a little higher than the left-hand side. This is perhaps a bit kinder to traffic on your right, though it lights up signs on the right of the road less. These lights are meant to be used in custom headlight assemblies, so they are fairly easy to fabricate brackets for and to aim (they basically have four mounting bolts arranged in a square, and you only need to use three of them).

Hmm... so I haven't really answered your question... I don't really feel comfortable ranking these since A) there is more than one dimension along which they should be compared and B) I don't have firsthand experience with all of them...

But if you want the best beam patterns (on high and low beams) possible, you'd probably want the CSRs.

The CSRs are likely to be impractically hard to fit, though, so the Hella 90mm lights would probably be a more likely solution. And these would still be way ahead of OEM lights. They're a tight fit but it should work with some creativity.

If you have a 92-94 then there may not be much to gain from glass lenses over sanded/polished/clearcoated stock lights. I don't know this for a fact though.

If you have a 90-91 then the glass-lens lamps sold overseas in LHD countries would be a big improvement over stock, but not quite as good as the Hella 90mm or Cibie CSR lights.

Whichever lamps you use, performance bulbs (like the Xtravisions or Philips Vision Plus) are good. They're easier to find for stock bulbs than for other lamps' bulbs, though. Like, I don't even know if there are other H9 bulbs than the Sylvania ones that come with the Hella lights. CSRs use H1 bulbs if I remember right, and Philips does make Vision Plus in that form.

Also, upgrading the wiring harness is a good thing. Your Beetle had 6-volt wiring which is better when used at 12 volts than most cars'. Our stock Legacy wiring is pathetically undersized, though. I think about a year and a half ago I promised in another thread on this BBS that I'd take pictures of my lighting harness installation and never did... I still need to do that.

Thanks for your response. It confirmed much of what I surmised -- such as the CSRs would probably be the ultimate best in lighting (and even better than the Marchals) but impractical to fit on my '93 Legacy. Though I haven't had much time to investigate what could be done, I've been trying to figure out how to fit the Hella 90mm lights into the Suby -- perhaps Rallitek will come up some custom glass housings -- that would be terrific! I prefer the European light pattern over the "Z" pattern (had Cibie's "Z" pattern lights in my '81 Subaru) but the 90mm would indeed be welcomed over the OEM lights.

You mentioned our OEM housings are of chromed plastic. Is that the reason why when you installed a higher wattage bulb it started to smoke while in other posts some having been using very high wattage bulbs for years with no problems because they have metal housings? But. . . doesn't Josh use 80/100w bulbs with no problems? Any reason why his works without problems while your test case went up in smoke? (Whoops, pun not intended.)

One of my next projects will be to sand/polish/clear-coat the OEM lamps and install relays and heavy gauge wiring. But I do have a question: do light sockets come with the 10-gauge wiring or will I have to modify the existing sockets by soldering in the heavy gauge wires? Also, would you recommend getting the parts from Daniel Stern or would the relays, sockets, wiring, etc. from a parts store be just as good?

To clarify my question, are replacement or aftermarket sockets made with the heavy gauge wiring?

I was reading your post again, vrg3, and what you said about lights having more than one dimension along which they should be compared reminded me of when I was deciding if I should get the Marchal flat-faced or the convex lights. The tech from Time Machines (where I purchased the lights) said he couldn't explain the difference in how the lights shone on the road but he said there was a visible difference. I always wondered what the convex lights would have looked like . . . although I couldn't imagine out how they could have been better than the flat-faced lgihts.

I have a set of headlights from a 92 that I've removed the lenses and reflectors from, and a set of Hella 90mm lamps... It looks like a little bit of trimming on the top and bottoms of the stock housings would allow the lamps to fit in. I have some clear plastic headlight lens protectors that I can put on afterwards in place of a lens.

Realize that both the rise-up-to-the-right and the step-up-on-the-right patterns are "European." I think I prefer the former over the latter too... If you can find a source in mainland Europe, the European Hella 90mm low beams have that pattern. They use H7 bulbs though, which aren't quite as good as H9s. It's funny. The US-spec 90mm low beam has higher light output than the European one. In Europe, H9-bulb headlamps are required to be automatically self-levelling, which Hella can't do because of the nature of custom headlamps. So they used a lower-output bulb.

I don't know for sure what part of the headlamp started to smoke, but I believe it was part of the reflector. I used overwattage bulbs in my Benz's lamps, but they had metal reflectors and glass lenses (as most good European lamps do). I don't know why Josh is so lucky. It may be a combination of factors. I don't think he has upgraded his lighting harness, so he's probably not getting as much heat in the lamps as I was with heavy-gauge wire. He has a 1990, so his headlamp housings are a little bigger than the 92-94 housings I was experimenting with. That may have allowed more room for the heat to dissipate a little. It's also possible that he did burn or melt a little bit of plastic at first but now it's out of the way. :)

There are a wide variety of sockets you can buy. Most of the aftermarket ones you get are made of heat-resistance plastic and have something like 14- or 12-gauge wire pigtails on them. I've seen some really awesome sockets that I believe were made by Hella; they were ceramic.

Since I'm not going overwattage anyway, the heat wasn't a terrible concern. I actually got a set of Mopar headlamp wiring repair connectors; they consisted of a pair of plastic housings and three terminals for each. I crimped in my 10 gauge wire and soldered it in to be safe. Before that I had used some OEM Subaru headlight connectors that I removed the wires from and kind of un-crimped with a knife and pliers and soldered my wires to.

Remember that H4s have the same connectors as old-style sealed beams, so you can use a connector meant for sealed beams (like the Mopar ones I have).

As for the wire, any old wire will do, although you can definitely tell the difference between premium wire and the bottom-of-the-barrel stuff you usually find at auto parts store. I got Amp King wire from Parts Express; it's really awesome. It has like a million strands and has very flexible heat-resistant PVC insulation. But as long as you make sure heat isn't a problem, any wire should be okay, since as far as I know your headlamps don't tend to move around a lot (which would stress out non-flexible wire).

It can be convenient to get relays with dual 87 terminals, so you can use one for each lamp. Daniel has these on hand, I think, but it's kind of hit-or-miss when you look for them at an auto parts store or even an electronics parts store.

Daniel's prices may seem high but his components are top-notch and you may well spend more than that sourcing the pieces yourself from all the various places... and he's a great guy to support with your business. I'd recommend him. Get a pair of nice Osram Super High Efficiency bulbs from him while you're at it. They're great bulbs not normally sold in the United States.

Hehe, you posted while I was writing...

I have no idea what the difference is between the flat-faced and convex lights. It may not even have had anything to do with the convexity or lack thereof. Did the tech there really know his stuff? Human perception is a very weird system, and he may have perceived a difference when there wasn't really a significant difference.

Thanks for correcting my posting -- yes, both the rise-up-to-the-right and the step-up-to-the-right patterns are both European code. (Boy, using my right pinky so much to type that "-" key got the little guy tired.)

Thanks very much for all that info about the Hella ceramic socket but that a "regular" H4 connector does work, too. And, the info about the wiring, dual 87 terminal relays, and Osram bulbs from Stern Lighting really helps me to figure out what I need to get and what to do.

The tech at Time Machines seemed to know what he was talking about although I don't know for sure. But he was explaining that just as the outside surface of the lens had a different shape, the bevel, curvature, and placement of each individual prism cut on the inside surface of the lens was different in the flat-face versus the convex-shaped lens. Consequently, the light beam for each lens was dispersed in a different way even though both lenses were the rise-up-to-the-right pattern. I guess the best comparison I can make is the different materials used in making eyeglasses. Lenses made of regular plastic, polycarbonate, high index 1.2, high index 1.4, etc., all bend the light to focus on the cornea that results in (hopefully) 20/20 or better vision, but each lens will bend the light in a different way, giving a different feel or sensation when worn. I don't know if that's an accurate analogy but it helps me to comprehend what could be happening in the light dispersion of the flat-face versus the convex-shaped lens . . . if the tech was correct in what he was explaining to me. Hmmm, on the other hand, some persons may not notice any difference.

I would be interested in seeing photographs of what your wiring set up looks like. And, if you ever get those 90mm hellas fabricated and installed in your Suby, I'd REALLY like to see what they look like and know how they perform! Please keep all of us posted.

Wouldn't you know it, I've got another question. Can you recommend any GOOD driving lights that I can mount below my bumper without having it stick out in front of the bumper? Yes, I know driving lights should be mounted higher, like on or above the bumper. Well, perhaps with some fabrication, they can be mounted in the grill. I know the round ones will generally put out better light than rectangular ones but the rectangular shaped ones will probably look and fit better. Any thoughts? Would the Hella 90mm high beams perform bettter than good European driving lights?

As far as places to mount it, I saw a pic of someone with an L grill, and he had lights in it, they were sitting flush inside the grill and it looked as if he just cut the lil bar in the middle out, it looked really nice. I'll see if I can find the pic

Thanks, THAWA . . . looking forward to seeing it!

THAWA wrote:As far as places to mount it, I saw a pic of someone with an L grill, and he had lights in it, they were sitting flush inside the grill and it looked as if he just cut the lil bar in the middle out, it looked really nice. I'll see if I can find the pic

actually....that is an OEM grill found in europe.

Not sure if this link will work to show the pic.

http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/bc ... t&.hires=t

Thanks for the link, Josh, but when I click on both it just brings up Yahoo page. From there I don't know what to do to get to the pics -- I haven't progressed that far in computerology yet.

Say, Josh, while you're on this thread, can you figure out why your 80/100w lights work well in your OEM housings (no smoke, meltdowns, etc.) when vrg3's attempt at higher wattage bulbs made his start smoking?

here's what I was talking about but they're both the same idea. As for josh's link just click previous then next.

http://www.graphics.cornell.edu/~v/pics ... agon_2.jpg

I don't have much experience with driving lights on my Legacy... the problem is that the best driving lights are made with freeform reflectors, which work a lot better when they're bigger. The openings in our bumper covers are fairly small, so you'd have to use projector lights to get any kind of acceptable driving light pattern.

Hella FF100s might fit, and they're pretty good freeform reflector lights...

THAWA and vrg3, thanks for the pics. I printed both out. I checked the Hella websites for the FF100's and they might just fit the contours of the grill better than a rectangular light.

THAWA, I tried going back to Josh's links in Yahoo but I couldn't find any buttons for "previous" and "next". Can you tell me where they are?

The pic I linked to is a copy of the one Josh linked to.

it doesnt really matter as it's the same pic vrg posted but after you login it brings up a photo album type dealy, with a previous and next selection this is what im talking about.

the link thawa posted shows the same grill that the pic I posted tried to show.

about my headlights......I honestly don't know why they work fine in my car.....I've had those suckers in there since 96-97 I believe. Wiring is fine.....I did get those lights before it was the big rave to have....so it's possible the lights are different. Other possibility is that the wiring harness is beefier......I really don't know.

vrg3, you have any ideas?

I wrote my guesses above...

vrg3 wrote:I don't know why Josh is so lucky. It may be a combination of factors. I don't think he has upgraded his lighting harness, so he's probably not getting as much heat in the lamps as I was with heavy-gauge wire. He has a 1990, so his headlamp housings are a little bigger than the 92-94 housings I was experimenting with. That may have allowed more room for the heat to dissipate a little. It's also possible that he did burn or melt a little bit of plastic at first but now it's out of the way. :)

Beefier wire would allow the lamps to dissipate more power, not less, so that would make more heat.

Vrg3, THAWA, and Josh: Thanks again for your help and in explaining things.

Funny thing, THAWA, when I click on Josh's link, the page comes up totally different than when I clicked on your example. In your example of the Yahoo page, the "previous" and "next" are right there (and thanks for circling them so I didn't miss it). But I've been having DSL and Windows problems for about a week now . . . couldn't even log into the bbs all that time. Maybe my server is not connecting properly or something.

Of the Hella FF100's and the 90mm high beams, whic do you think will give the better lighting of the two? Is there a place I can go for specs, pics of actual beam spread, etc.? Hmmm, I think I've got an idea -- I'll just call up some of these places that sell the Hella lights. Eventually I should be able to get someone who may know the answers. I guess I answered my own questions. Uh, disregard this paragraph. . .

Well, there's much more to the performance than just specifications like spread angle and stuff, and photographs don't really capture much useful information about the beam's pattern... You kinda have to see them in real life. Or find someone who's measured the output with a photogoniometer. :)

It's hard to say which would do better... they're both freeform reflectors from Hella. The FF100s use a 55-watt H3 bulb, and the 90mm lights use a 65-watt H9 bulb. The H9s have almost 50% more light output in lumens. But, then, the FF100s look to have reflectors about 50% bigger than the 90mm lights. So... Maybe they'd be about the same? This is all assuming that Hella tried to give them both the same basic pattern, which I would expect but don't know for a fact.

vrg3, I totally agree with you that there is more to good lighting than specifications. The absolutely best way to determine good lighting is to see it in person; for me, it's to drive with it and test it in a variety of terrains.

As for photographs, they definitely don't give the true picture of what the lighting does. However, I was thinking of comparative photographs where two or more lighting systems were set up from a fixed location and the camera (not an automatic one) had fixed settings (aperture opening and shutter speed). By comparing the photographs, one could see more features lighted up down the road with one lighting system versus another lighting system. Then I could pick the best of the lot and see if I could find somebody with those lights for the actual real life test. But, if the lighting systems were pretty close to each other in performance, the photographs wouldn't be definitive enough to determine which one would be the better one.

Hmmm, the battle of the FF100s and the 90mms. I appreciate those technical facts about the lights. Hopefully I'll be able to find an expert from Hella who can provide answers. I'll be sure to post when the answers are forthcoming.

I learned a new term -- photogoniometer. Webster's dictionary didn't have it. Did a search on Google and found it. It was what I expected -- equipment that measures angles and intensity of light.

BTW, where did you get that shrugging emoticon from?

And, would you say that Hella makes the best auxiliary lamps?

Say photogoniometer ten times quickly. . .