legacycentral bbs

Hey guys, long time no talk. I'm sooo tired of school.

Anyway, I'm looking into buying a real nice condition '99 EJ25 and building it. I'm not sure the mileage but I am sure its fairly low. I particularly wanted the '99+ because of the phaseII design so its exactley what I'm looking for.

They're asking $2k for it and it is JUST the engine. It does not come with the ECU, transmission, fuel rails, etc. I took a look at it today and it looks really nice but they say "what you see is what you get". So I guess 'what I see' is basically the throttle body, intake manifold, heads, block, timing belt, and flywheel (all together as one unit of course).

Is this a good deal?? I see these on eBay every once in a while selling for about $2k or more excluding shipping.

What parts would be interchangable with my BC setup? What type of pain and frustration would I have to go through in the future to drop it in?

I need more power!! (more potential power for that matter)

In case some of you feel betrayed...
The EJ22 will forever live on as one of the best engines ever made and will never leave the fondness of my heart.

That's an awful lot of money when a turbo can be had for less, which I would recommend even if you were building an N/A car as the stronger block would still help with high rpms and CR.

Steve

See this thread:

http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?t=15368

I don't know about price, but you should definitely find out if it came from a Legacy or Impreza, and pics would help.

Someone on Nabisco is selling an EJ20 for 2k with everything but turbo/ic/tranny.

Just to go on record, the Phase II EJ25 improved on the headgasket issues, not eliminated them...

It has solid lifters, which don't get gummed up, but need adjusting...

EJ22 is still worth the hp/torque discrepancy IMO...

Thats way too much. Move one

I found a good EJ25 for sale on nasioc with transmission for 850 before.....

Its out of an Impreza.

I dont really believe in just throwing down for a turbo setup because I think it would be even more of a pain to try and turbocharge my EJ22 now. Its got 124k on it and its also my daily driver so it cant really be out of commision. A kit is like $2k as well...uninstalled.

A 2.0(turbo) is out of the question as well because of displacement. Lack of displacement that is. You can only go so far with 2.0 and torque is a beautiful thing. I'm thinking at least a 2.2, but a 2.5 would be better.

I really would like to build a maximum power NA first, and then consider forced induction later.

Some of you would say 'stick with a EJ22'? Tell me more...

Some good points and thoughts. They're greatly appreciated.

For two thousand bucks, you're going to get what 30 more horses and lbs of torque? then you'll spend about another thousand or so in bolt ons to make a good 20 more? Sounds counter-productive to me. You could sell your car and use that money plus the 2k you've got on a turbo leggy, and be much better off than going how you're thinking.

Mr.Pessimist wrote:but a 2.5 would be better

One word: headgaskets

I personally wouldn't trust the n/a 2.5s anymore than I could throw one when it comes to headgaskets. All 2.5s will have a premature HG failure, IMO.

A 2.0(turbo) is out of the question as well because of displacement. Lack of displacement that is. You can only go so far with 2.0 and torque is a beautiful thing.

I dunno. I test drove a wrx back when I had my GT (with the 2.5L). The difference in lowend was negligible, IMO. Besides, do you tend to try and pass other cars with the engine under 3000rpm?

Your worried about power from a 2.0? You had better read the proven power braggin forum on Nasioc before you contiune. Much more power has been made fromthe 2.0 than any other subaru engine.....

A stock legacy turbo setup puts as much HP as the 2.5 with about 20 more lbs/ft of torque at low rpm. You could get the whole plug & play setup with stock turbo for under or around $1500 (ecu and engine, you don't need a harness). From there your pocket 's the limit. Transplanting it wouldn't much harder or longer than a 2.5.

Steve

woudln't it be easier since you wouldn't have to deal with converting from obd-II to obd-I? It's something like 3 wires that need to be changed or added or osmething?

Well I could be off base here, but I dont consider myself to be completely ignorant when it comes to engines, cars, ect.

I'm sure you can bundle all of the performance mods that were put on that 2.0 and throw them on a 2.2 or 2.5 and then tell me how much power you got. Sorry guys, even with 4-cylinder engines displacement matters.

And about the passing at less than 3 grand. I tend to do that quite freqently. I'll give you the scenario: I'm sittin' at about 2500 rpm in 5th going about 65mph. I go to pass somebody so I gently lay into the throttle and BAM within seconds I'm going 80mph. Thats the great thing about the 2.2, the low-torque that keeps climbing and doesnt let up. I'm not sure you'd get as good of results from a 2.0.

Good point on the stock Legacy turbo setup, but the prob is that all those engines got a whole lotta life on them. Second, they are turbocharged in order to have equivalent HP to the 2.5. Now, think about turbocharging a 2.5...STI anyone?

I'm just really looking at potential power. I ask myself "what engine can give me the most potential for maximum power in the future?" Lets say I start building this engine (with low miles) now and I continue to put money into it. I'm planning on making this a huge hobby of mine when I get done with school in the next year. If I land a real nice job I may just be putting thousands into this engine build and I feel that what STI has done with the 2.5 can be taken even further with a little more cash in hand.

Dream with me for a moment...
~~A 350+HP EJ25 in the body of a '93 BC-BF Legacy~~

Think about it...

Miles on the engine isn't the problem, headgaskets, compression, and the block design are. Ciper said his block he bought with hoever thousands of miles on it still has the cross hatching in the cylinders. Not all 2.5 engines are created the same, the USDM STi engine is semi-closed, which is the reason it can take that kind of punishment. The ej22t from the legacy turbo is much stronger than any 2.5 engine ever made. 300cc's of displacement won't make that much difference in power. While the 2.5 engine does have 165 or whatever hp it doesn't have nearly the amount of torque the 22t has. Just because a block is turbocharged doesn't mean it's weak. If you want to you can read up on how easy it is to push 12+ psi on an opendeck 2.5. Then you can read about how easy it is to have 12+ psi on a closeddeck 2.2. I've been talking to some guy in the uk who said he had about 390 whp on his closed deck ej20g at 23 psi. Still think a 2l block is weaker? Displacement does matter, but not nearly as much as people make it out to, esp when the difference between the engines is no more than a few hundred cc's. If you were talking 1.8 to 3.3 then yeah I'd agree with ya, but 2.2 to 2.5 But take all this with a grain of salt if you'd like.

My JY turbo for $750 incl turbo has no detectable wear to the valve train or cylinders. These closed-deck blocks were designed for 400+HP while the open 2.5's with their larger heavier pistons flying around in a less stable block is not. They blow HGs stock, never mind boosted. An EJ22T should be able to make 300-350 HP all day long while a comparable 2.5 would be a nightmare. Unless you wanted to go new STI block, which is not quite as strong still, though should be plenty tough enough, but will be a lot more expensive. The 2.2, even N/A open-deck engines, are only broken in @ 100k or more. But hey, its always up to you.

Steve

The 2.5 is a good motor,, when kept NA. Turboing causes problems, you cant get much more than 6 psi without making substantial changes. If you want the displacement go for a 2.5 turbo block from the Baja/Forester/STI. This block is new, and unique to NA (Except the brand new forester in japan that got it). Its not as strong as the average 2 liter or 2.2

The 2 liter has existed for 16 years. In that time even factory cars have got over 300hp 300tq. End user cars have gone far higher. Dont think this is some honda engine with 300hp and 150tq!

Perhaps you dont realize the power curve of even the 2 liter engines, thats why I told you to view the dyno charts over on NASIOC. Your logic of other engines does not apply

So it seems as though the EJ25 is a pretty sub-standard engine, as far as any significant form of compression. I'm really amazed that Fuji would produce such a engine with lack in increased performance ability.

I figured that 30 more hp/tq out of 200cc is pretty cool and I want an slice of that pie.

You guys are making some really good points and as a result I'm becoming increasingly frustrated.

Did you guys ever read that COBB article on the phase I and II EJ25s?

It seemed as though they were going to really performance tune that phase II. Have I been missled?

Dont you guys think that the lack NA performance mods for the first gen 2.2 (i.e. performance cams) is a little too tough to get around when considering making this engine spit some serious power?

Its the increased displacement that screwed us both times. If they had given us the 2.0 liter we would have infinite parts from all over the world to use.

At least now the ej257 is popular, and available in japan.

Well, I guess you guys convinced me. I am no longer looking into that EJ25. I think I'll just stick with another closed-deck 2.2 and build that one.

Anyone thought about adjusting the valve rockers to compensate for lack of better lobed cams?

Thanks for the input guys, you probebly saved me from a waste of $2k and some serious headaches. I still cant believe that the EJ25 is that bad, but I'll take your word for it.

Here the link to COBBs tech articles...it looks like their '99 2.5 is staying NA

http://cobbtuning.com/tech/index.html

Well,
for starters read my signature!

My RS ( a phase II w/ 93k mi) just blew it's head gasket. And SOA has just put out a service bulletin extending factory warranty on that failure to 100k because it is an issue. That said, I am building my EJ25, and have been for a while. I will give you some math on my NA build:
Cobb CAI $250
Stromung Cat Back $550
Cobb Headers $1000
Cobb phase II NA heads $3000 ( should be finished in May, they take 6 months to get.
Block? I will be getting an EJ257 turbo block and putting in Cobb custom 12:1 CR pistons. Cheaper than a Cobb built block ($4000) but still going to run about $3000
And then you need engine management, so figure in another $1000
Where does that put you if you add in $2000 for that engine you found(which is like 3 times what you should pay for that. If you ever want one, let me know and I'll find you one...)?
$10800 for around 230-240hp at the crank.

OR (part two of my signature)
BF/BC Legacy, plus
EJ20G w/AWIC $750 shipped
EJ22T harness,ECU, manifold w/dist. and crossmember $275 (keep in mind I got the block in the deal, but it is not part of the current swap) So, lets just says $150 for those parts.
Random parts like fuel pump, radiator, etc. $400

$1300 and 220-250hp
What is better math? You decide...