legacycentral bbs

Heya...
I've been trying to decide what to do with my turbo...and engine management seems like a major issue. We don't have plug and play options as far as I know. I'm a little worried about afc's ability to work with subaru's ecu learning...
So I've been thinking about greddy's emanage. It seems like its pretty powerful for the price...500$ for a decent degree of control over fuel and timing, ability to run upgraded injectors, get rid of the MAF, run blow off valves, fix bad idle from aggresive cams, datalog, different maps, hook up the profec eo1 boost controller and emanage programmer..., datalog from attached greddy electronic gauges, although it can get expensive if you start doing everything...
http://www.mohdparts.com/emanage/index.html#supporttool
thats a link for some deals on emanage and stuff, and some info on it.

I'm wondering if emanage will have problems with subarus ecu learning around it? It actually notes having applications for bc/bf turbos in japan...
but I imagine our wiring harness is different. Too bad cause I have an ej20g too...Thats one thing, I'm nervous about cutting up my ecu harness/wiring...I wish I could buy or make a connector that would plug into the stock ecu and harness allowing me to splice in without cutting the stock harness...
I'm interested to here what people think about this...any of you down under guys know people running emanage?
thanks

Ok...no one seems to have much to say about emanage...
how about the link and/or link plus?
They have plug and play applications for wrx's...and maybe EJ20g legacy's/liberty's...not sure about that though. I'm thinking that early wrx and even early ej20g legacy's plug and play link/link plus aren't going to work with our ecu/harness. So I guess once again, no plug and play solution. Link does have wire in applications that would work for us though...the link's have become pretty expensive here. I guess I got the same question about rigging up something so one can wire it in without cutting the actual harness. I guess you would need both the ecu and harness type connectors...I bet they are hard to get, the easiest way would probably be to cannibalize an ecu and harness...
Anyone...bueller? anyone?
thanks

I don't know much about engine management but the emanage looks like a good deal.

*whine mode on* pay attention to meee!
haha I had an exgirlfriend who always used to whine that...
Well...I'm not doing a very good job it appears, but I'm surprised no one seems to have anything to say about engine managment. I know we have a lack of plug and play solutions, so its a pain, but engine managment seems to me to be something that becomes a major limiting factor really quick when we start modding our cars...
Thanks

I wish I could help you, but am looking for the same answers.

I also had a girlfriend who used to say that when I was reading car magazines, only she didn't whine - she'd say it and take off her shirt.

Worked every time.

Steve

I think it's just that not many of us have experience aftermarket engine management in general, and with the e-Manage in particular.

My plan for my car is to modify my stock ECU but I have no idea when I'll have that figured out so I can't recommend it to anyone.

Anyway, from what I can tell, the e-Manage does fuel control by acting as a very sophisticated AFC that uses a map instead of a simple table. The biggest drawback to AFC-type piggybacking is usually that it screws with timing. But the E-Manage has a neat timing control system -- you can advance or retard timing with the same kind of map. I guess it does this by watching the ECU's ignition signals and then either predicting the signal and firing early or observing the signal and firing later.

It seems like a very roundabout way to get decent control over fuel and ignition by modifying the ECU's inputs as well as outputs, but at the same time it seems like with enough skill and patience you could get almost the same control as you could with a fully programmable ECU.

I have nothing of substance to contribute but I would love to hear if this works. $500 is engine management I could actually afford.

I'd really like to get a vrg3 ECU reflash someday .

Matt - Find the datasheet for the Hitachi HD63140CP and we'll get a lot closer.

Micum - I can make you an extension harness for the ECU if you want. You gotta pay me though; it's a lot of work.

How much, including parts and if I give you the parts?

I dunno what the labor's worth (it's like 6 hours to assemble)... but around $50 for the parts? The parts include an ECU (or at least the connector from it) and enough pieces of wiring harnesses to connect to all the pins with sufficient gauge wire.

vrg3 wrote:Matt - Find the datasheet for the Hitachi HD63140CP and we'll get a lot closer.

I did a little digging and came up with this:

The 63xxx processors are Hitachi manufactured clones of Motorola 68xxx
parts. Hitachi is the source for most Motorola CMOS parts. The HD63
means it is an Hitachi manufactured MC68 equivalent. Programming and
pinout should be the same as the Motorola MC6803 and 68140. The "C" at
the end means it is a CMOS part (static sensitive!). The P stands for
"Plastic" packaging. The C in the middle of the 63C03 means it is a 3MHz
part (6803 is 1MHz, 68A03 1.5MHz, 68B03 2MHz, and the C 3MHz). After the
little stir when Hitachi "improved" the 6809 (6309 is exact compatible,
but also has some extra registers and other goodies built in,
unauthorized by Motorola! Hitachi didn't change the dies, but was
"gagged" by Motorola and couldn't publish anything about the extra
features. But the info eventually was "leaked" in Japan and later found
its way here. I'm a 6809 machine user, and have an opsys that takes
advantage of all the extras in real time... makes quite a speed
difference!), I doubt Hitachi made any changes.

Get programming info from Motorola web sites.


Which may help the quest.

Check out this site Vikash.

http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe ... procs.html

It sounds pretty interesting.

Scroll down to the bottom and click on the homepage link, then the old page link.

Thanks, Matt... I wasn't seriously asking you to go research it. I did ask Scott though and he's using his resources and connections.

I should have said what I know -- The HD63140 is an adjunct to the HD6303-series microprocessor. I have pretty much all the data for the processor itself already except for the pinouts of the 68-pin PLCC form. Hitachi calls the HD63140 a "universal pulse processor." It provides such neat extra functionality as analog-to-digital conversion (multiple channels, but I'm not sure how many), pulse width modulation, nonvolatile memory, and other goodies.

IDA Pro is actually now a big-name disassembler. I ... erhm... "acquired" a copy and tried it on the ECU ROM but was unhappy with it. A freeware disassembler called DASMx actually does very well, and that's what I'm using. It's not interactive, though.

I'm actually quite pleased. This evening I think I figured out the external ROM setup on the ECU. If I have it right I won't have to do any soldering or cutting or anything on the ECU itself to do these modifications.

vrg3 wrote:Thanks, Matt... I wasn't seriously asking you to go research it. I did ask Scott though and he's using his resources and connections.

Oh ok, so Scott can help you research but I'm not good enough, huh?

Seriously, it took me all of about 10 minutes to find that stuff.

Just to throw out a little more info on the emanage, I'll post the info from Z1 performance's website, they sell them. Interesting thing, it can control two extra injectors, which could be handy...but where would you put two injectors to get fuel evenly distrubuted to all four intake runners? Didn't the really early wrx ra's have a single extra injector? I wonder what the deal with that was...
anyways, here goes:

E-Manage is an inexpensive programmable fuel management system that allows you to properly tune your factory fuel system, without having to change the entire factory ECU system to an expensive stand-alone unit. The e-Manage system is a universal piggy-back type unit, which taps into most factory ECU wiring and it still utilizes the existing sensors. Basic functions will allow the user to slightly alter factory injector duty-cycle (± 20% at 5 preset RPM points), by intercepting and altering airflow or MAP sensor signals. For VTEC cars you can adjust the VTEC shift point.

Additional features that are built into the system, but are only accessible though the use of the PC-Windows based "e-Manage Support Tool" communication software or the GReddy Profec e-01 programmer are

16x16 Airflow Adjustment Map
Larger Main Injector correction adjustment
Upgrade Air Flow Meter adjustment
Boost Limiter Cut
Anti-engine Stall
VTEC-fuel adjustment
Real-time Map Trace
Real-time Display
Real-time Communication
basic Data-logging.

With the use of the "Optional Injector Harness" and the software, the unit has the ability to

Control an additional 16x16 Injector duty cycle Map
The Controls for adding up to 2 Additional Sub-injectors.

If the "Optional Ignition Harness" and the software is used the unit has the ability to

Control a 16x16 Ignition Timing Map.

All of the above Maps can also be Map-traced in Real-time as well. If the factory range of Map or Airflow meter is surpassed, you can incorporate our "Optional GReddy Pressure Sensor and Pressure Harness" to set larger scales of adjustment.

All installation and tuning should only be made by a trained technician with proper Air/Fuel Monitoring tools.

Package deals are available with harnesses, sensor and support tool


I saw a post on nabisco where someone said that the emanage can only retard timing, not advance it...don't know if they know anything, but wouldn't controlling a map imply the ability to do both?
And that little end note about installation and tuning and a/f monitoring makes me think one really should have a wideband 02 if they want to get a powerful and safe tune out of this. But its cool to not have to come up with base maps like with standalones...I guess.
Thanks

It seems odd that it can advance timing, but I do remember reading its tuning manual a long time ago and being impressed that it can (if the manual is correct). If I remember right each entry in the map can range from +20 to -20 degrees.

You could probably install additional injectors near the center of the manifold, where the coil pack goes on waste-spark Subarus. Or maybe you could adapt an injector to the PCV valve port.

To properly tune any engine management you really should have a wideband oxygen sensor and an EGT gauge, in my opinion.

Well, I've had precious little luck finding the data sheets so far. I haven't been able to get a hold of my old boss or any other folks but I'll keep on trying. I did find a couple places that wanted to sell me the part and a couple places that specialize in obsolete data sheets. I sent them an email but they still haven't responded as of today. One of the places was in asia and the other was in ohio. There was one place that claimed they had the data sheet for both devices but they wanted 100.00 for it!!

Scott

Thanks for all the effort, Scott.

I would have thought that someone trying to sell you a part would be willing to give you its datasheet for free first.

A hundred bucks isn't that bad considering the potential future value of the information... if I were a corporation trying to make a marketable product out of this research I'd probably pay it. But I'm not.

The piggyback sounds pretty interesting, but it seems like it would take a LOT of time and not be nearly as safe as a fully programable ECU.

I'm still trying to figure out how to setup an Autronic system in my car. I'm not having much luck, but I haven't searched TO much yet.

VRG3 - PM Subiekid (I think that's his name). He built a harness adapter to plug the EJ22T right into the stock ECU from an N/A EJ22. Not sure if that knowledge would be of any help, but he might have a bit more info (he, in fact, has a 95 EJ22T powered Legacy).

I'm curious why you think a piggyback like e-Manage would be less safe than a completely standalone system.

I'm the one that built Subiekid's harness.

vrg3 wrote:I'm the one that built Subiekid's harness.

Oh, then PM vrg3 and talk to him...

Why don't I think it's as safe? It just seems like there is a higher potential for conflict between the piggyback and the stock ECU. One want's one thing, the other wants something else.

I tried, but the %$@ never responded to my PMs!

Hm. I see your point about the dangers of tricking the ECU, but my instinct is that keeping the stock ECU with some tweaking is safer than starting from scratch. I think the advantage of retaining the flexibility and adaptability of the stock programming is huge. Subaru had lots of people working for a long time developing the stock ECU to handle all kinds of circumstances and situations. A skilled tuner can work magic with a standalone ECU, but he's still just one person working for several hours or days.

I agree completely, but I'd imagine that the stock programming could be replicated into the Stand alone unit, then tweaked from there?

I don't know a lot about the ECU in the car, so I can't really say, but it would seem that if the piggyback could trick the ECU, and if the ECU wouldn't reject the information, then it would be REALLY safe. I'd just be worried about a hickup in the piggyback that would throw a million and ten codes from the ECU when it suddenly realizes that it's 90 degrees when the piggyback had been feeding it 40 degree signals.

No standalone units have all the adaptive capabilities of the stock ECU. It wouldn't make sense to implement those, because they're pretty specific to the car.

But, yeah, like I said earlier in the thread, with the work of a very skilled tuner a standalone ECU won't give you any troubles.

The ECU doesn't reject information from a piggyback. There's no way it could; it's not like that information is separate from the real inputs.

The neat thing about the e-Manage is that it doesn't manipulate the engine position sensor signals. The ECU gets the correct cam and crank angle signals and fires sparks when it thinks it should. The e-Manage goes on the output side of that loop -- it reads the ECU's spark outputs and uses them to control spark directly itself.