legacycentral bbs

Since a lot of people here wear them, what is so great about a manual transmission?

Oh do I have a 3-page long response for this when I get home!

im seriuously waiting for it.

The level of control that it opens up over an automatic.

If you don't drive to the level where you realize the power of this control, then don't worry about it, and an automatic is probably better for you.

It's the age old. If you have to ask, you'll never know.

what are you controlling?

Believe me, I know why most people like them, but i dont understand why it turnsa into a blinders issue.

The attitude of the car. Weight transfer. Balance.

You can't do those things with an auto. And when you try (you tried explaining something about staying on the brake and giving it gas to keep it down a gear or something through a turn), you don't do it nearly as quickly.

how are you controlling weight transfer and balance? I dont remember explaining something like that.

I'm not going to get into the semantics of it. However, out of the very few who have done a tranny swap, I can tell you each has it's pluses and minus's.

The one thing I do miss about the auto is the gearing. The gears are much longer gears, which minimize shifting, and just give the car a completely different feel. It's really hard to explain.

I think with a properly setup auto, and the right driving technique, you can have close to the same control with an auto. I know....I used to drive that way.

The manual transmission, however just seems to give you (the driver) a much more solid connection with the engine, the road, and a better ability to modulate how the car behaves with just the throttle.

Down shift for a turn, lets you get off the brakes earlier and allows you to enter a turn with a more neutral front/rear balance. You can give it gas to shift weight back, and let off to shift it forward.

There's no blinders. There are those that know the advantage of the control that a manual gives, those that know, but don't care, those that don't know and are just biased, and those that see things 1/4 mile at a time, and dislike manuals because of it.

You MT guys.....you "can" manually shift an AT, and achieve very close to the same effects as down shifting, and or throttle lift off weight shift.

You can, but few automatics can do it smoothly at speed, and generally don't do it with any manner of quickness or crispness. I know the 4eat in my BD couldn't downshift smoothly to save it's life. Might have been different with the BC/BF

Legacy777 wrote:The one thing I do miss about the auto is the gearing. The gears are much longer gears, which minimize shifting, and just give the car a completely different feel. It's really hard to explain.

I miss the gearing aswell, 1st comes and goes far too quickyl for me. But I too know what you're tryting to explain

BAC5.2 wrote:Down shift for a turn, lets you get off the brakes earlier and allows you to enter a turn with a more neutral front/rear balance. You can give it gas to shift weight back, and let off to shift it forward.

There's no blinders. There are those that know the advantage of the control that a manual gives, those that know, but don't care, those that don't know and are just biased, and those that see things 1/4 mile at a time, and dislike manuals because of it.

This is the same as an auto, so where is the advantage?

BAC5.2 wrote:You can, but few automatics can do it smoothly at speed, and generally don't do it with any manner of quickness or crispness. I know the 4eat in my BD couldn't downshift smoothly to save it's life. Might have been different with the BC/BF

I completely agree, different trannys behave diffeernt, phase II 4eats dont behave the same as phase I 4eats.

also as far as quickness, how long do you think it takes an auto to shift, and how long do you think it takes you to shift?

My real reasoning behind preferring a MT is because in a turn, your shifter is in gear, and it's not going anywhere. With an automatic, it's not guaranteed that the tranny is going to hold the gear you want it to, unless you're in 1/2. For higher speed turns, it just doesn't cut it. And a stock AT just doesn't shift fast enough. Think about breaking into a turn, at the apex you need power right there. You have to deal with the lag of the AT's response.

You just can't beat a good MT with a good clutch and light flywheel for spirited driving. That's why I am heavilly considering a 6MT. But oh so expensive.

THAWA wrote:This is the same as an auto, so where is the advantage?

Not quite the same in an auto. Again, smoothness plays key. Heel-toe in a manual, and you can drop down through the gears like a high quality sequential box. Go for a ride with someone who knows their way around a clutch, and you'll see just how smoothly it goes. If you stay in one gear, yea an auto can be competetive (auto-x, for example). But when it comes to the track, you just can't get the same control with an auto that you can with a manual.

Manuals are also more reliable when it comes to performance. There's not a twisty-road motorsport that relies solely on automatic transmissions. Why do you think that is? If an auto was as good, or better, they'd be used. They aren't. Manuals offer more consistant performance.

also as far as quickness, how long do you think it takes an auto to shift, and how long do you think it takes you to shift?

Oh, no doubt an auto can outshift a human. But at the limits, someone who knows their way with a clutch can shift much smoother than most automatics. And when it boils down to it, it's smoothness that matters. You want to be as smooth as possible to avoid upsetting the weight balance. I've never drive an auto that upshifts or downshifts under all conditions, good enough to be considered a competitor to a good manual driver. I've heard of very few autos that can compare.

kidatari wrote:My real reasoning behind preferring a MT is because in a turn, your shifter is in gear, and it's not going anywhere. With an automatic, it's not guaranteed that the tranny is going to hold the gear you want it to, unless you're in 1/2. For higher speed turns, it just doesn't cut it. And a stock AT just doesn't shift fast enough. Think about breaking into a turn, at the apex you need power right there. You have to deal with the lag of the AT's response.

You just can't beat a good MT with a good clutch and light flywheel for spirited driving. That's why I am heavilly considering a 6MT. But oh so expensive.

While your reasoning is valid, it's untrue. If you have the tranny in the gear you want it, it will be in that gear, assuming you're not going slower than needed to keep that gear, but then why would you want to be in that gear when the lower one would provide better power delivery. Compare the shift time between a stock at and a stock mt and tell me the at isnt fast enough. As far as the response goes, you can't just drive an auto like it's a manual, because it's not. You have to know how the car will behave with an auto, just like you have to know how the car will behave with an manual. I can totally see and understand what you're saying, but you're describing what an inexperienced auto driver would do, so it's not reallyan arguement. I could say similar stuff about a manual driver, like leaving it in one gear through turns if you should've been downshifting and upshifting, or not heel toeing to prepare for the next gear.

BAC5.2 wrote:

THAWA wrote:This is the same as an auto, so where is the advantage?

Not quite the same in an auto. Again, smoothness plays key. Heel-toe in a manual, and you can drop down through the gears like a high quality sequential box. Go for a ride with someone who knows their way around a clutch, and you'll see just how smoothly it goes. If you stay in one gear, yea an auto can be competetive (auto-x, for example). But when it comes to the track, you just can't get the same control with an auto that you can with a manual.

What is different? I agree smoothness does do a lot, and if you just mash the gas in an auto you wont be smooth, if you mash the gas in a manual you wont be smooth either. YOu can be plenty smooth in an auto if you know how to do it so where is the advantage?

Manuals are also more reliable when it comes to performance. There's not a twisty-road motorsport that relies solely on automatic transmissions. Why do you think that is? If an auto was as good, or better, they'd be used. They aren't. Manuals offer more consistant performance.

and what kind of gearbox do they use in F1? What about WRC? Is it a synchromesh box?

It's a squential box. Manual enough to not be an auto. What do NASCAR, some indy cars, and shifter-karts use? NASCAR is a great example. They could very easily use an auto, it's foot burried to the floor 99% of the time. Why don't they? Because they make 800hp, and need to last 500 laps. NASCAR pitstops take almost no time, not nearly enough time to change ATF. Back in the day, they took 12 seconds or so. Now, maybe 20? You can't even check tire pressure in that time. Reliability is key.

In order to bring a better opinion to this, I asked a few road racing buddies of mine.

One point he brought up, is that you don't have to be sequential with a manual. Thinking about it, I've done this more than once, 4th then heel toe into 2nd for a turn. Can't do it in an auto.

He also made mention of powerband. You can leave it in 2, but when you mash the gas, it'll downshift. You can't do a full boost, WOT pull in 2nd from 25mph in an auto. And the 2-to-1 downshift is gonna be harsh, again, effecting smoothness. When you are trying to put power down coming out of a turn, you want to be as smooth as possible. I don't know how YOU drive your manual, but when I get on it in gear, it's smooth.

Another point you've yet to fail to address is the heat issue. Auto's, under abuse, heat up a LOT more, and the fluid gets VERY hot (since, as you know, it's all about hydraulic pressure). When an auto get's hot, the shifts become less percise and basically, soft. That doesn't happen in a manual as often.

The closest thing you've got to boil is the clutch fluid, and that rarely happens.

Plus, a manual is just more fun.

Okay guys, I just have to chime-in here for a moment.

I've got what many consider a unique situation with my car. 300hp, relatively low weight, AWD, and 6 gears.

What advantages does my 6MT have over automatics?

With the amount of torque and power my car lays down under hard acceleration, weight transfer happens very quickly and sometimes hard. Let-off the gas suddenly while in gear and those 300 ponies almost instantly disengage and the car will actually buck forward. Why is this an advantage? To most people it's a potentially dangerous situation. Throttle-off oversteer is one of the leading causes of crashes among inexperienced STi owners. This quirk can be an advantage at the track if understood and used properly. With the amount of oversteer I can induce say in 2nd gear, I can rotate the back of the car around an autocross course with a lot of ease. Just ask Laurel. . . I powerslid through one gate at the last autocross, and got the tail out a few times entering turns much faster than simply applying the brakes.

An automatic, especially if not shifted manually, can seldom induce that kind of reaction from the back of a car. Even when an AT in this situation is shifted manually, the degree of control that is required to execute without spinning-out is beyond the capabilities of most transmissions, and almost all drivers. The transmission simply cannot be controlled that precisely.

Where does the automatic really shine? Drag racing, for the most part. Almost every professional drag car uses a heavy duty, highly-refined automatic transmission to plow through the gears while barrelling down the 1/4 mile at sub-10-second times. Why is this so useful? No misshifts. . . consistent performance one run after another . . . I know there are more, but I don't know enough about the mechanics of AT's to say.

I'm not saying that ATs are good only for drag racing. . . simply that you've got two very different styles of racing, and two degrees of control that need to be achieved for each style. Each transmission shines for its own reasons, but it's up to the driver to understand those reasons and make sure they're applying them to the right style of racing, and doing so well to achieve the desired performance level.

I wrote this in Notepad and then cut and pasted, to save as I go so if something happens I won't lose a whole novel

I'm going to toss out these arguments: reliability, speed (acceleration/lap times/anything), gas mileage, etc. These arguments are no longer valid, because the automatic is just as reliable, just as fast pretty much, and gets just as good of gas mileage.

It really all comes down to preference. Plain and simple.

I don't know about you guys, but I could give a rat's ass about my E.T., lap time, lateral g's, 0-60, etc. etc. I drive my car to enjoy it. I enjoy the fundamental concept of driving a car. It frees me, it makes me feel good about myself, it takes everything off my mind, it makes me happy to be alive.

I don't wear blinders; I've driven all kinds of automatics in the course of my life: two BMW's (a 525i and a Z4), a 92 Mitsu 3000GT, numerous Toyotas of course (from the Celica to the 4Runner), an 03 Subaru Legacy Wagon, and these were just the cars I've driven with some lead in my foot. In fact, I'd go to say that I've probably driven more autos in my life than manuals. I'm no expert at driving an automatic in a racing style, I can't left-foot brake for shit. But the reason is that I have no desire to learn.

The fact of the matter is, I don't enjoy driving an automatic. No matter how many ways there are to shift the gears manually, I still don't enjoy it. My grandmother's Z4 is quite entertaining to drive, but the only thing I wish is that it was a manual. It's not the same bumping the gearshift up or down to make it shift.

You still don't have the control you do with a manual. You can't control what an automatic clutch (TC) does, it operates on its own. The only way you can make it seem like you're disengaging the clutch is to put it in Neutral, and that affords you no benefits while you're driving. Yes I do recall ciper mentioning he could possibly rig up a clutch pedal to control ATF pressure in the TC or something like that, making it possible to "disengage" the TC while you're changing gears or whatever. But if you're going to do all that, just get a freekin manual! This would be like getting a male breeding dog, castrating it, and then trying to get it to reproduce. Just leave the balls on the damn dog!

Driving a manual makes you feel accomplished, like you're an advanced human being, if you ask me. Driving a manual RIGHT makes you feel even better. I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to come on here and post a whole thread about nothing more than this perfect 3-2 rev-matched, heel-toed downshift I nailed on the way home. There's nothing rational about it, there's no mathematical explanation that states that I exited the corner with 1.257 more mph of speed, it's just something that's so fundamentally enjoyable that I couldn't possibly see myself driving a car in which I couldn't do it.

If you offered me an automatic Porsche 911 Turbo in trade for my manual Legacy, I'd tell you to go screw yourself. I don't care how much faster it is, I don't care how much pussy I would get by taking it to some ritzy club every Saturday night, I don't care how much more it's worth. I wouldn't enjoy driving it. And I don't see the point of owning a car like that unless I enjoy driving it.

I've talked to the most die-hard car people who, though they drive manual, would possibly consider an automatic, or at least a paddle-shifter car. I stand my ground and insist that as long as I'm driving, I will be shifting gears myself. This is a statement which anyone of you can hold me to for the rest of my life: If there is ever a point where I will be required to drive an automatic for my everyday car, I will turn in my license and take the bus. That's how strongly I feel about it.

Ahh, Lift throttle oversteer. That was my first introduction to AWD drifting in the dry. Coming around a turn on a backroad, WOT in 2nd (wide turn), dip off the throttle, car turns in, back on the WOT, and a nice smooth slide is induced. It was pretty cool.

BAC5.2 wrote:It's a squential box. Manual enough to not be an auto. What do NASCAR, some indy cars, and shifter-karts use? NASCAR is a great example. They could very easily use an auto, it's foot burried to the floor 99% of the time. Why don't they? Because they make 800hp, and need to last 500 laps. NASCAR pitstops take almost no time, not nearly enough time to change ATF. Back in the day, they took 12 seconds or so. Now, maybe 20? You can't even check tire pressure in that time. Reliability is key.

It's still not a syncromesh which is what the majority of road cars have, so my point is still quite valid. I dont pretend to understand NASCAR and I'll gladly wear blinders to keep nascar out of my vision, so anything related to it is quite stupid to me personally. Why would you need to change the ATF after so few miles? Even when the temp of it is twice as much as the operating temp it's life expectancy is still more than 10k miles and I'm damn sure there aren't races that long. But in what situation would you drive a car where you'd let an element of it go unchecked and basically kill itself? Especially if it were an investment.

In order to bring a better opinion to this, I asked a few road racing buddies of mine.

One point he brought up, is that you don't have to be sequential with a manual. Thinking about it, I've done this more than once, 4th then heel toe into 2nd for a turn. Can't do it in an auto.

explain why you cant downshift more than one gear to the correct gear for the speed? On a related note, but not the same idea, you might not need to go from 4th to 2nd, but in most cases where you're in that situation on a 5 speed box you'd be in 3rd on a 4 speed box

He also made mention of powerband. You can leave it in 2, but when you mash the gas, it'll downshift. You can't do a full boost, WOT pull in 2nd from 25mph in an auto. And the 2-to-1 downshift is gonna be harsh, again, effecting smoothness. When you are trying to put power down coming out of a turn, you want to be as smooth as possible. I don't know how YOU drive your manual, but when I get on it in gear, it's smooth.

Again this goes back to the mash the gas theory. I'm sure if you just mashed the gas at 25 mph in 2nd gear it would be smooth right? Why would you want to do this in an automatic? If you're sitting in 2 in an auto and mash the gas you wont be smooth and you're right it'll downshift, but if you knew how do drive a car, auto or manual, you'd know you shouldn't mash the gas like that to be smooth. If you knew how to drive an auto you'd know you can go WOT and still be in the same gear without the trans downshifting. So this is a moot arguement. Personally I drive a 5mt like shit, there's times when I'm smooth as silk but more often than not you'd think it was my first day of driving. I can admit that, and I can totally see how someone could drive one like a king, but obviously noone here can see the reverse.

Another point you've yet to fail to address is the heat issue. Auto's, under abuse, heat up a LOT more, and the fluid gets VERY hot (since, as you know, it's all about hydraulic pressure). When an auto get's hot, the shifts become less percise and basically, soft. That doesn't happen in a manual as often.

I didnt bring that up because I wasnt trying to point out flaws, My intention was to find out why people wear blinders about transmission choices. There's some points you've failed to address aswell. That being said, would you take your car out to a road track with a radiator a quarter the size of your current one, or without one completely? Of course not, it'd overheat, so why do you think someone who was serious would drive an auto hard without having it cooled well?

Plus, a manual is just more fun.

And this is what these types of discussions always come down to, opinion rather than fact. I find it more fun to drive quicker and better than people using an auto, so now that point is moot.

Yukonart wrote:Okay guys, I just have to chime-in here for a moment.

I've got what many consider a unique situation with my car. 300hp, relatively low weight, AWD, and 6 gears.

What advantages does my 6MT have over automatics?

With the amount of torque and power my car lays down under hard acceleration, weight transfer happens very quickly and sometimes hard. Let-off the gas suddenly while in gear and those 300 ponies almost instantly disengage and the car will actually buck forward. Why is this an advantage? To most people it's a potentially dangerous situation. Throttle-off oversteer is one of the leading causes of crashes among inexperienced STi owners. This quirk can be an advantage at the track if understood and used properly. With the amount of oversteer I can induce say in 2nd gear, I can rotate the back of the car around an autocross course with a lot of ease. Just ask Laurel. . . I powerslid through one gate at the last autocross, and got the tail out a few times entering turns much faster than simply applying the brakes.

An automatic, especially if not shifted manually, can seldom induce that kind of reaction from the back of a car. Even when an AT in this situation is shifted manually, the degree of control that is required to execute without spinning-out is beyond the capabilities of most transmissions, and almost all drivers. The transmission simply cannot be controlled that precisely.

Where does the automatic really shine? Drag racing, for the most part. Almost every professional drag car uses a heavy duty, highly-refined automatic transmission to plow through the gears while barrelling down the 1/4 mile at sub-10-second times. Why is this so useful? No misshifts. . . consistent performance one run after another . . . I know there are more, but I don't know enough about the mechanics of AT's to say.

I'm not saying that ATs are good only for drag racing. . . simply that you've got two very different styles of racing, and two degrees of control that need to be achieved for each style. Each transmission shines for its own reasons, but it's up to the driver to understand those reasons and make sure they're applying them to the right style of racing, and doing so well to achieve the desired performance level.

How was the DCCD setup at the time? I can certainly see what you mean, but how many sti's out there have at's we could compare the situation to?

Of course we can't do a direct comparison, Hardy. . . I was just making a point that there are quirks about each kind of transmission that make one more desireable than the other. . . depending on the driving style and how well the driver can manipulate the mechanics.

The DCCD in each case was biased slightly to the rear for the autocross runs. However, almost every other time throttle-off oversteer wrecked an STi, the DCCD was set to auto. I'm not saying that my setup didn't cause oversteer on the track. . . it does help. . . but it's certainly NOT necessary with this car in order to achieve the same effect, just easier.