legacycentral bbs

OK... still working on the Deadbolt turbo decision. So far, it's looking like I'll be getting a water-cooled clipped TD05H-20G with the monster port, compressor housing outlet port, with coatings on both sides.

The subject of wastegating has come up, however, and I am trying to decide between an 11 psi internal wastegate setup with a ported gate and enlarged flapper -- or an external Tial wastegate setup. The price difference is roughly $250 more for the external wastegate setup. Will it be worth it, though?

Are internal wastegates good enough for tight boost control/regulation? Or will internal wastegates always result in boost spikes? The external gate will require some additional uppipe and downpipe fabrication, and cost more. Thoughts?

EDIT: Topic changed again

Go external. You will save yourself the trouble of worrying about spiking, or creeping if the internal gate can't flow enough (that's the problem with the VF39, I hear. The wastegate is to small for the size of the turbo).

I hope your planning on having more than 2.2L to spin a 20G before 6000....

You're kidding, there's no way the lag will be anywhere near that bad. This is with the clipped TD05 turbine, too.

Clipping is always bad, but especially so on such a monstrously huge turbo. There's no way that compressor wheel is gonna be a restriction.

OK damn it, let's elaborate a little bit and help Chris pick a turbo with the board's collective experiences.

I thought if we could spin a TD05/16g with no problem, why not put the largest compressor wheel possible on that turbine, like I did with the VF11?

Jerry from Deadbolt said:
"Please note that I supply this quote with a CLIPPED TD05H turbine wheel which will help with flow and give less chance of bosot creep on the 2.2L engine. We do not recommend the standard TD05H on that engine. This turbo would include rotated compressor housing inlet for easier fitment to the Legacy."

Then later, after further inquiry:
"Using the clipped TD05 versus the standard TD05 will provide better flow but better spoolup than a TD06. It will also allow better top end performance. Even with an external gate the clipped turbine would work better due to better flow."

On Deadbolt's website, it states that the TD05/20g will spool about 200-400 RPM later than the TD05/18g, so it can't be that much worse.

Seeing as to how I've never owned an expensive, brand-new, bad-ass turbo before, I would definately appreciate any and all feedback from those who have worked with them. I just want to be sure that if I'm dropping $1g or more on a bad-ass turbo.... that it actually is as bad-ass as it can get for my Legacy.

Bad-ass. Ah, English. What a language.

So, BAC: What experience or logic is telling you that I won't be able to make use of the 20g hybrid with the rev range and displacement on the Legacy?

And, Scott: Why is clipping always bad? How could the compressor wheel be anything but a restriction until it turns...?

Recommendations?

I don't know about clipping the turbine wheel and stuff but I can tell you that your VF11 is fully spooled at what, about 2200-2300 RPM? The TD05H-16G isn't fully spooled until around 3000 RPM. The TD05H-18G isn't supposed to fully spool until around 3400-3500 RPM (at least that's what I've heard) right? So it seems like a TD05H-20G probably wouldn't start to really whistle until around 4000 RPM. That only leaves you a 2500 RPM rev range to be on boost. Driveability probably wouldn't be very good if this is your daily. The thing I love about the 16G, and the reason I chose mine, is because it's a good mix of power and driveability. Now you might say "well when I'm using the LegaCU I can get rid off the rev limiter and have a bit more room to be on boost" and I'd say "our heads won't flow up high so you better start looking to swap in DOHC heads".

I think the super 16G or 18G would be better then the 20G. Driveability won't suffer too bad and you'll still produce good numbers.

You must realize too that the 16G is enough turbo to push our OEM internals to their limits so if you're going to go with some huge ass turbo you better be looking into forged pistons, SS head gaskets ect... I'd be picking up a spare EJ22T ttoo so you have something laying around to swap in after you blow up your motor.

Oh, better start looking to rebuild the tranny too. Are you 5mt or 4eat? I can tell you right now that the 4eat isn't going to be able to handle even the 18G and the 5mt probably won't do too much better either if you're pushing big numbers.

Oh ya, then there is your axles. You did say 4 wheel burnouts right? You'll be snapping axles like matchsticks in no time. Better keep a few on hand in the trunk so you can get home from work after impressing the co-workers on the way out the parking lot.




I'm just playing devils advocate here but these are real concerns that should at least cross your mind before choosing your snail.

Indeed... those are good points, and the sort of thing I need to hear about here. Thank you for taking the time to 'splain your points.

Yes, I see what you mean about the RPM range now. I had no real data to look at and was just guessing the 20g couldn't make it too bad. Hmm.

I do plan to get another used EJ22T engine, if I can find one somewhere for a reasonable price. Then of course I want to tackle the heads and rebuild it and really ensure that I have a solid engine to swap in when the time comes.

Until then, though, I'll have to deal with the limits that my heads and my internals set in place. But with proper fueling, our internals can actually take 30 psi without 'sploding?! Wow. I think I need to worry about my differentials and transmission before I need to think about forged internals...!

So seriously, I do want something that will be usable as a daily driver here, so perhaps the 20g would be a bit much for my targets. The super 16g flows only slightly less than the 18g (585CFM vs 590CFM) so if it spools easier then it's a good compromise.

Wait - did you say the standard 16g can push past our internals' limits?! A 16g will be good at boost ranges around 30 psi?! Or are you just saying it can spike that high and hurt things?

(keep in mind I won't be trying the 4-wheel burnouts for quite some time, that is an ultimate goal of mine and I understand it will take many driveline modifications to make it a reality. My immediate goals are having more fun on demand and giving me a serious motivation to make progress on the LegaCU so I can turn my boost up!)

Clipped is bad. If it was good for anything but top end in drag cars you could buy one from turbo manufaturers.

Who cares about head flow if you have a monster turbo? To hell with all the "you need DOHC for power" guys. Just force air through the stock heads.

If it was me I'd just get a 16G. By the time you outrun the power you can get out of that you will know a lot more about turbos. If you need a huge turbo now I'd say Garrett T61 or a Holset HX35. The Holset uses the standard Garrett flange so you could just start with a JY $50 T-3 and upgrade to when you need to.

OK, you may be correct there. Anyone have any clue why Jerry from Deadbolt said "we do not recommend the unclipped TD05 on the 2.2L" -- could it be because I had already requested the 20g hybrid?

Here's that handy Deadbolt comparison chart again:
http://boostplanet.com/compressorflow.htm

So, according to the above linked chart, the standard 16g compressor is said to flow 520 CFM, or 33.5 lbs/min. Where does a flow rating like that run out of efficiency, boost-wise (in PSI), on our 2.2L 8.0:1CR engines?

For that matter, is this chart a good method of comparison? Could we get together with all our vast knowledge and experience as a collective, take this chart, and make it really freakin' useful? I mean, lets add things like "full spool RPM in Legacy 2.2", perhaps the a/r of the wheel, and how about the number of fins? We could add IHI and Garrett compressor information to the list and really have a hell of a resource here.

I know I saw lots of good info to put in such a list... you know what? Fuggit. I'm making that list. I'll post a link to the Excel spreadsheet I come up with and we'll go from there.

OK - just by researching Deadbolt's site briefly I was able to come up with the following initial Turbo Compressor Master List, currently only containing information on Deadbolt/Mitsu turbos.

I will add more later but this will give us all a platform on which to suggest improvements and add data, at the very least by posting it here in this topic.

http://home.cfl.rr.com/free5tyle/images ... rChart.xls

IMO, 20G's are too much. I know of one guy with an STI with a 20G that ran a 12.7 or something at 6000 ft, where he ran a 12.64 with his 18G. It almost seems that the 18G is the right size for our little 2.0-2.5 engines.

everyones experience is different.

i happen to come from the huge green folowing that orignated in the early stages of wrx existance. the deadbolt equlivant of the green is the super zilla 49. the sz isnt as punchy but holds more power than the green does. from the side by side dynoplots for the turbos the sz has a flatter torq curve whereas the green peaks and folds over. they both have lag but still get a fair amount of spool in first gear. oh and their tdo6-20g's

i think they will spool at about 4500 to 5000 on the 2.2. and just because i want to see what they can do on these motors, i think you should get it

Yeah, I am interested to see how the 20g does too... just not sure if I want to drop that kind of money just yet.

I had found someone that was selling TD05/16g early WRX turbos from the UK for like 250 pounds, but that was a while ago. I tried to recontact him and have not heard back yet.

Anyway, just came across a crapload of turbo information to put into my chart. I'll upate the file on the server soon.

Updated turbo compressor master spreadsheet with lots of good info I found on NASIOC. Still no VF-11, VF-10, or T-bird hybrid info though, but I put place holders.

Someone else'e turn. Gimme some useful info to put in the chart that's not already there

(here's the link again, although the old one will work just as well):

http://home.cfl.rr.com/free5tyle/images ... rChart.xls

this is kinda OT, but what vehicles have 18g's and 20g's stock?

That's not off-topic... actually thats a damn good piece of information. I think I'll add a column to the chart for that, and hopefully between all of us we can fill it in.

I think I'll call the column, "Stock Vehicle Source".

I think I'll also add a column for which turbine sides are compatible.

Unfortunately, in answer to your question, I have no answer to your question. I'd like to know where I can source 18g and 20g compressor wheels other than paying for them new.

Bump. The master list has been quite updated and expanded. I await corrections, additions, and suggestions.

http://home.cfl.rr.com/free5tyle/images ... rChart.xls

afik none their just upgrades

Wow, great list!

Just a few corrections.
I'm not sure what US legacys came with a VF10 but it wasn't autos. I've got two turbos from autos and they're both VF11's. It wasn't manuals either as there are many here with VF11's as well. I think this may be a bit of confusion from when it was just the yahoo group. At anyrate the VF10 did come on Legacy RS's and Liberty RS's in the auto form.

From what I've read, the VF8 only came on JDM Manual Legacy RS's. All other Manual Legacy RS's and Liberty RS's came with the VF12.

Thanks, I've updated the list with that info. I've also found and added some Garrett turbo information, and added a new column for compressor wheel size and trim in mm.

Same link, new file:

http://home.cfl.rr.com/free5tyle/images ... rChart.xls

now thats a very nice chart of all the turbos out there.

i would stick with the stock turbo and the t-bird housing, the problem is not the turbo, tuning is the key for the ej22t.

azn2nr wrote: i think they will spool at about 4500 to 5000 on the 2.2. and just because i want to see what they can do on these motors, i think you should get it

See, this is just insanity to me. With a 5k spool and a 6.5k redline, driveability would be horrible. Lag, lag, lag, lag, lag, lag, boost-shift, lag, lag, lag, lag, lag, lag, boost-shift, lag, lag.....I don't think the 1.5k of on boost, would make up for the serious lag. I bet someone running next to you with a 18G (or hell, maybe even a 16G) would cream your ass because they'd be steadily pulling away during your extreme lag times.

Yes... Excellent... let the turbo debate begin.

Soon we will have enough data and logic to select an optimal hybrid for Legacy 2.2L engines (the best compromise between lag, efficiency, performance, and price)

I do not want that much lag, nor do I really want to have to spend that much money, so the 20g compressor is out apparently no matter what turbine it's attached to. Depending on how much faster the Super 16G spools than the 18G (not to mention price and availability factors), one of those may be the optimal Mitsubishi compressor side for our cars.

Here's some useful info. TONS of maps for various brands of turbochargers......

http://not2fast.wryday.com/turbo/maps/#garrett

Especially this link in there. A map for the stock Legacy Turbo......

http://not2fast.wryday.com/turbo/maps/I ... u_EJ22.jpg