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Ej20G w/Ej22T head is interference, learned the hard way...

Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 3:29 pm
by Matt Monson
:( Welp, I've got another rebuild on my hands. Yesterday, the owner of the car I installed the turbo hybrid into came by because he had a problem. He said he had a rattle in his timing belt covers. Removal revealed that a bolt from the belt tensioner had worked it's way loose. We checked the timing, no problem. But the bolt had cut the belt, so we replaced it.

Timing belt is now back on the car. I walk away for a cigarette. The car's owner puts the center cover back on. I suggest he start the car before we go any further just to check things out. He starts the car, it and after about 5 seconds, it starts to clatter and stall. Inspection revealed that the gasket on the cover was stretched and he missed the end of it when he bolted the cover on. It got caught in the timing gear, the belt skipped, and he sent his valves right into the pistons and seized the engine! :evil:

We'll be pulling the motor and starting teardown tonight. Pictures to follow... 8)

Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:25 pm
by Kelly
Oh man, that really sucks.

Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:53 pm
by 206er
sounds like a good engine other than the whole interference and having to rebuild it thing. those 20g heads put the motor at about 7:1CR right? and what are(were?) the specs on it?
what headgaskets did you use on it?

Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:43 pm
by Matt Monson
You've got it backwards. It's an Ej20G block with Ej22 turbo heads. 9:1 CR. Stock headgaskets. Now that the car was tuned with an Emanage with a non-intercooled 10psi on the VF-11, it was a pretty mean little set up. We'll see what happens. If it is just a few bent valves, he'll likely rebuild. If it is more than that, he's just going to ditch the boost and run the Ej25 w/Ej22E heads set up we used to run in Bohdi's car...

Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:27 pm
by 206er
yeah, brain fade got the best of me I guess, its even in the title.:roll: I thought you might be talking about bugman's motor.
the ej20g pistons come above the deck right? maybe that was what made it interference?
I just got my ej22E heads/phase 1 2.5 bottom end built, its completely installed waiting on me to try and start it. 8) keeping the fingers crossed. got an amazing deal on the shortblock from frantic 4, those guys rule.
Its a pretty good motor for low end torque right? thats what I'm shooting for. its still completely stock other than the shortblock swap.
who tuned the emanage on bugmans setup? cool car, sleeper as hell eh.

Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:45 pm
by Matt Monson
This is Bugman's motor. The Ej20G pistons don't clear the deck anymore than the Ej22T's do. But the timing was off about 30 degrees when I checked the marks after it seized.

You'll be happy with your Ej25/EJ22E set up. Gustavo huber is trying to get the one I built and sent to him running right now as well. I've been helping him trouble shoot via e-mail all morning

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 4:49 pm
by Matt Monson
Well,
We got it apart this weekend. Poor poor engine. I will have to shoot some photos. The exhaust valves on #3 broke right off! Put a dent a 1/16" deep in the piston top too. Where the hell am I gonna get a single EJ20G piston? #1 has bent exhaust vavles as well. Regardless, the head is done cuz the broken valves totally cratered the combustion chamber and valve seat area.

We are going to put together a new engine this week. Removing the turbo and putting in an EJ22E with Delta Cams. It's a shame too because with the E-manage, the car was running really strong. 10psi w/o intercooler and no detonation. The thing was a strong little beast. Probably pushing 200hp. If we had only got it to the dyno before this happened...

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:43 am
by Project_Legacy
daymn that sucks. dont worry im still running mines. :D i dont have an emanage though. i was going to dyno it when i get all the damn bugs out.

did the owner ever have the problem of running too rich that it chokes with the ej22t fuel system on there?

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:12 pm
by Matt Monson
Yep,
That and too much advance from the 1.8l ECU were what prompted the purchase of the E-manage. He went through 2 sets of plugs in the first month. With the E-manage, IIRC, he had it set to -32% fuel delivery on idle.

Now I have to figure out what to do with this block. How about an 8000rpm redline running NA with some 12:1 JE pistons and EJ25 heads? That would power my 914 pretty good, don't you think?

That is if I don't need the crank for my RS-RA. I still don't know how bad my bottom end damage is... :(

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:09 pm
by Project_Legacy
daymns... thats a lot of extra fuel. is it alright if i run the N/A fuel pump to give it less gas?? do you think that would work? or would it not give it enough on boost? because i heard from someone on here that if you run a turbo fuel pump on an N/A it would make you run rich.

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 11:31 pm
by Matt Monson
remind me of your set up? Engine? Injectors?

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:38 am
by Project_Legacy
oo oops. im running the ej20g shortblock with ej22t heads, intake manifold, and fuel system. basically same thing as that customer you had.

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:48 pm
by Matt Monson
Well,
What we did to make it driveable until he got the E-manage was to use the Ej18 injectors, but leave the Legacy Turbo fuel pump in there. He still had an issue with detonation above 5000rpm because of the timing advance, but it wasn't so terribly rich anymore.

I would seriously consider saving your $$$ up for a Perfect Power from Rallitek and going to them and having them dyno tune the car. With your location, that really is the best option...

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:24 pm
by Project_Legacy
heh i really didnt want to have to do anything like that. this motor was just gonna be for screwin around with while makin money to build the EJ22T block into a monster. so basically i really dont want to put big bucks into anymore of it.

where is Rallitek located at?? :?

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:26 pm
by Legacy777
portland oregon

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:03 pm
by Matt Monson
Well,
If you are going to build a monster EJ22T, the Perfect Power will be a great source of engine management. If it were me, I would save the money of not buying forged pistons to spend on the EM portion of the equation.

Once you hit 12psi and a bigger turbo and an intercooler, I am all about getting real EM and not just going with an MBC, FCD, and an AFC. You will spend close to the same on a slew of controllers when 1 unit will do it all for you. Check out the threads in the EM and Turbo forums to learn more about the PP. That's what I am going to use on my RS-RA when it is done...

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:55 pm
by Project_Legacy
yea. but that will be later on down the road. so do you think that N/A fuel pump would flow enough to make it not detonate? meaning, will it flow enough for the turbo?

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:02 pm
by Matt Monson
I'd get smaller injectors before I got a smaller fuel pump. The flow rate and duty cycle will be the same on the injectors even with an NA pump. So you will run the risk of leaning out up top and still have it pig rich at idle on the turbo injectors...

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:06 pm
by Project_Legacy
ic. well i have the choice of these injectors

1. 2.2 1990 N/A legacy injectors

2. ej20g injectors

3. and the ej22t injectors

someone was talking about the JDM ej20g's had injectors that flowed 440cc's. it was someone on here. that would make me run even more rich. should i use the N/A 2.2 injectors?? i would think that they would hit more than 80% duty cycle when on boost. which do you think i should use?

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:29 pm
by Matt Monson
Help me out here. You told me your set up, but what car is it in?

If you have a Legacy Turbo that is running this set up, I would run all the stock bits. Your MAF is going to provide your ECU with the right info on air so that it gives the engine the right fuel.

Keep in mind, I have been talking about running this set up in an Impreza that started life with a 1.8l and NA. They are apples and oranges...

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:37 am
by Project_Legacy
o. its a MY90 legacy AWD turbo motor swap. i am using all the stock 2.2t stuff. fuel/air everything.

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:49 pm
by Matt Monson
But what ECU???

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:18 pm
by Project_Legacy
o my bad. ej22t ecu. basically, everything is the ej22t stuff EXCEPT for the shortblock. thats all.

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:33 pm
by Matt Monson
Then I wouldn't expect you to have the fuel issues we dealt with. Keep your turbo fuel pump and injectors and you should be fine...

Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:36 am
by Project_Legacy
oo ic. because what i was getting was fuel choke. too much fuel. but i think that might have been because my wastegate solenoid was messed up. whenever i would try to smash with it on it would rarely go past 5 PSI and it would choke. sometimes it would stumble but when i hit like 1 or 2 PSI it would be fine. the mechanic i talk to said that i had a boosting problem. he said i wasnt getting enough air in and too much fuel causing it to stumble, and occasionally choke, when i try to smash.

with it disconnected, it ran perfect. no problems, no stumbling, or choking. but i cant get my MBC to work that way. it still stumbles with it on. it hasnt choked yet though.

i havent configured my MBC to run at the stock level of PSI yet.