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I need to figure out what rally class we will be competing in, and I need to know the limits of what we can do.

So what defines each class (Group N, Open Class, Group B, etc.).

I think we will be in open class, but I want to know the limits of the class.

I also need to know the FIA regulations for roll cages, and whether or not Open Class cars are required to have FIA cert. roll cages.

If anyone could point me in the direction of some good rally information, that'd be sweet.

I might be partially able to help you...

Group N cars, I believe, are subject to displacement and turbo size limits and usually have to run with a restrictor plate...

I don't know about group B...

Open class is the most extreme class outside of ProRally, because open class is truly open...any displacement, turbo size, no restrictors, etc.

From what I have seen, USDM STi's run in open class, because Group N is usually for 2.0 liter and smaller, like WRC regulations...

I hope this was of some help, and I am sure someone who is more knowledgable can help.

Maybe check out the rallyamerica site too??

Any AWD turbo car has to run a restrictor, regaurdless of class. the restrictor just changes sizes between classes. and its a very small restrictor if you've just started rallying. i'm pretty sure thats it, post in the motorsports forum on nasioc for more specific info. there is alot of rally nuts in there.

I thought Group N just had a 300 hp-300 tq limit. Stock STIs were competing in group N at STPR.

legacy92ej22t wrote:I thought Group N just had a 300 hp-300 tq limit. Stock STIs were competing in group N at STPR.

the STis in GN are not stock. they have the JDM 2 liter in them.

what car are you building? what series are you going to compete in?

i dont know the NASA rules. but i know the Rally America ones pretty well.

Group B is an onld FIA class that no longer exists.

US classes and FIA classes have nothing to do w/each other all that much outside of GN.

GN cars have to be buitl to VERY specific standards using parts from a specific list of what are called variant options. they have small restictors and less power than an open class car. but as we saw in RA this year that lack of power didnt hurt all that much. also GN cars are newer cars.

PGT has to remain very close to stock. it is for awd and turbo/supercharged cars or cars w/larger engines. for exapmple a PGT legacy SS would have to have a ej22t and the proper trans and final drive ratios as well as a ss grille and bumpers and all SS specific trim, brakes and what not. RA is allowing reflashed ecus in PGT now i guess. they too have restictors. i THINK you can stich weld a pgt shell. you can not put smaller brakes on an evo or sti and run in pgt.

P is similar to PGT but mainly for small displacement non turbo 2wd cars. a EJ22 is too big for P as it is actually a 2212 cc engine w/4 valves per cyl.

open also has restricors just not as small as the PGT and GN ones. but other wise it is prety much anything goes.

more than 300 chp/tq in a gravel rally car is pretty much a waste of power unless you have all the fancy diffs and stuff like a WRC car to compensate for the loss of grip.

pretty much anything goes in open. as long as the engine is made by the shell manufaturer. ie subie in a subie.

G2 and G5 are for 2wd cars. G2 is for small displacement non turbo cars. this is like open and anything goes as long as the engine is made by the same manufacturer as the shell, but you can put a ford motor into a merkur, and the drivetrain layout remains the same as stock. ie a FF car would have to stay FF. no mid engine RWD ford focus.

here are some examples of what would go where:

open-anything.

GN-wrx

PGT-wrx, eagle talon, legacy SS, 323 GTX, mustang GT, awd legacy w/either 2.2 or 2.5. impreza rs+l.

P-SE-R, golf, FWD impreza w/1.8, accent/excel, 4 cyl tiburon, geo metro,

G2-pretty much same as above but you are free w/mods more than production classes.

G5-mustang, RX-7, porsche, XR4Ti, any turbo/big motor 2WD car.


hope that helps.

i have been farily active in rally for the past several years and have organized a few rallycrosses and competed in a couple rallies.

BAC5.2 wrote:I need to figure out what rally class we will be competing in, and I need to know the limits of what we can do.

So what defines each class (Group N, Open Class, Group B, etc.).

I think we will be in open class, but I want to know the limits of the class.

I also need to know the FIA regulations for roll cages, and whether or not Open Class cars are required to have FIA cert. roll cages.

If anyone could point me in the direction of some good rally information, that'd be sweet.

Dude, I didn't hear about this! What's the plan? Is this for your SS to compete in Club rallies?

I want to know the class for a 300whp/300wtq 2.35L Legacy SS, with a non-stock drivetrain.

We'll start club rallys I think, then progress from there.

I assume we'll have to roll cage it, and I need to know what the regulations are for that, what we need to have in there to be able to compete.

Sam, if you called more often, you'd know these things . Come by the shop or something sometime!

Ha! It's only been about two weeks since I finally stopped my streak of having one car or the other in your shop for like 6 weeks running. Furthermore, I have an appointment to get that ACT clutch put in by you guys early next week. So I haven't exactly fallen off the earth!

Speaking of which, I need to talk to you about transmission options. Give me a call on my cell phone sometime when you are on duty.

ON TOPIC -
Yeah, you definitely need a roll cage for anything other than rallycross and it needs to be built to pretty demanding specs.

I think your mods are considered pretty hefty when it comes to rally. But then again, I don't know the club and pro classes very well. I wouldn't guess you can run those mods in PGT... and that means you will be thrown in the shark tank. But, let's get real. It's all for a little fun and exposure anyway.

For rallycrosses, though, you will have a VERY VERY competitive setup. I would chart a course for some national-level rallycross events since that whole scene is picking up in exposure.

Oh yeah, I thought I heard that there were some new rules for Rally America's club and pro events that basically said "a newbie can't start their first year with a lot of horsepower and AWD". I'm not sure what the exact restriction is, but the idea is to keep you from killing yourself. I would check out that rule.

BAC5.2 wrote:I want to know the class for a 300whp/300wtq 2.35L Legacy SS, with a non-stock drivetrain.

We'll start club rallys I think, then progress from there.

I assume we'll have to roll cage it, and I need to know what the regulations are for that, what we need to have in there to be able to compete.

Sam, if you called more often, you'd know these things . Come by the shop or something sometime!

that would be open in RA. however, RA will not let you run that car as a novice rally competitor.

NASA might.

for insurance reasons, related to the dumping of rally by the SCCA, Rally America will not allow novice competitors to compete in AWD Turbo cars. or FWD turbo cars as well. you could run it in NASA rally events (i think) to gain experience or you could contact JB Niday at Rally America and tell him your plans. he will probably not grant that car a rookie exepmtion but if you are willing to run a ej22 in it for a while and gain enough coefficients you could then drop the monster motor in their and have waaay too much crazy power in about a year.

you want to go here:
http://www.rally-america.com/forums/index.php?
and here:
http://www.rally-america.com/
here are rally america's rules:
http://www.rally-america.com/rules.php
and here:
www.speicalstage.com
and here:
http://www.nasarallysport.com/
here are NASA's rules:
http://www.nasarallysport.com/rules.php

look up their rule books and the technical directors for each series to see what they have to say.

JB Niday and Mike Hurst are the guys you wanna talk to at Rally America.

not sure about the NASA contacts.

for some awesome stuff about prepping subarus for rally go here:
http://www.rocketrally.com/managed/index.php
that is patrick richard's rally company. when it comes to subaru and rally pat is the guy to talk to in NA.

keep in mind that low boost, drivability, and reliability are often better than a all out high boost car, even in open. its easier to finish well when you dont blow an intercooler hose or have a bad off. finishing with a mild car is better than a mechanical or crash with a monster.
yes, for club rally wether PGT or open you need an FIA cage. there is a FIA weld in cage kit available from england for BC/BF legacies. matt #1 has it in his rally car, its a pretty quality kit. PM him for more details. make sure whoever does the install knows the rules and if possible look at some of thier previous work to determine their skill. safedrives in oregon did matts cage and Id say they did a pretty good job.
start by rallycrossing the legacy a lot before you build the piss out of it. if it is a dedicated fun car already, maybe just gut it, skids and flaps, LSD rear, bolt in roll bar, rally tires, and run open rallycross.

206er wrote:keep in mind that low boost, drivability, and reliability are often better than a all out high boost car, even in open. its easier to finish well when you dont blow an intercooler hose or have a bad off. finishing with a mild car is better than a mechanical or crash with a monster.
yes, for club rally wether PGT or open you need an FIA cage. there is a FIA weld in cage kit available from england for BC/BF legacies. matt #1 has it in his rally car, its a pretty quality kit. PM him for more details. make sure whoever does the install knows the rules and if possible look at some of thier previous work to determine their skill. safedrives in oregon did matts cage and Id say they did a pretty good job.
start by rallycrossing the legacy a lot before you build the piss out of it. if it is a dedicated fun car already, maybe just gut it, skids and flaps, LSD rear, bolt in roll bar, rally tires, and run open rallycross.

that is what i would do if i had the extra cash and time off.

That's what I'm saying! We've got rallycrosses in the Mid-A for the next 3 weekends in a row!

Phil, how about this deal. If you guys can get my clutch fixed this week, then I will let you rallycross it this weekend to get your feet wet.

Yeah, I was gonna say that you probably wouldn't want to build a 400-450 whp monster for rally Phil. Rally is about consistancy and being smooth. You can have a wicked fast car but if you can't control it or have a lot of lag, you won't place (if you even keep it out of the trees in the first place).

I think that about 350 whp was the most any of the open cars at STPR were pushing. I think a built short block, wrx heads w/cams, maybe a super 16G or 18G, big intercooler (fmic or large top mount) and full EM would be plenty. You'd want to really concentrate on suspension and drivetrain.

I'll probably enter the RallyCross scene with it, and have a mild motor in it for a while.

I'll have to do some more research on how to get into this. If I couldn't run my car, even stock, in Rally America, that blows. Will RallyX pull me out of the "novice" class?

I should have stuck to road racing, lol.

BAC5.2 wrote:I'll probably enter the RallyCross scene with it, and have a mild motor in it for a while.

I'll have to do some more research on how to get into this. If I couldn't run my car, even stock, in Rally America, that blows. Will RallyX pull me out of the "novice" class?

I should have stuck to road racing, lol.

have you done alot of road racing?

that may make a case for you to run the SS in PGT in stock trim if you agree to a smaller restrictor and a bome stock ecu.

refresh my memory. what is your motorsports background?

I've been told the best way to get your feet into rallying is to start with an old FWD beater like a golf or something like that to get your car control down. AWD can help people make up for a lack of skill. What you would learn as far as carrying speed and proper lines could prove invaluable when you do have a monster of a rally car. Besides, it would be pretty sweet to run a beater for a year while you build up the SS. Plus you'd probably learn alot about setting up your car, and other stuff you wouldn't think of if you jumped in with the SS. Just a thought...

I've done a few Auto-X's and a short track day for fun at a local road course.

It'd be almost impossible for me to go back to stock at this point.

I might just do the transmission and rally cross it for a while and see if I can build points in NASA to bump me up in RA's experience level.

I can understand the points about loads of power, and I definately wouldn't want to start with 350whp or something. I definately don't want to die.

I suppose I got a little ahead of myself. I probably will do some rallycrossing though and progress through the ranks, and probably still build a motor and stuff if for nothing else but to get out on the road course more and get into that more.

Mid-A RallyCross schedule
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