legacycentral bbs

My sons 93 non turbo has a hard starting problem. When starting it just cranks, hit the trottle it tries to start but wont. it will finally start but idles really low, hit the throttle it tries to die. He drives it to school and it does the same thing after sitting all day. It has 4 codes 12 , 21, 22 , 32. I'm going to get an O2 sensor and water temp sensor. Do you think either of these is the reason for the hard starting? Thanks!

Coolant temp sensor would be my first recommendation on replacing.

Coolant temp sensor will get replace first then. I thought I had read somewhere that it could make the car hard to start.

Yes it can really play a lot of havoc on starting.

Finally replaced the coolant temp sensor. Didn't help. Any other ideas?

Sounds like fuel pump. I had a legacy that would only start if you gave it gas when you started it and then revved it a lot for a minute. Then I parked it for 2 years and it wouldn't start at all after that. I replaced the fuel pump and sending units with junkyard parts and it started right up and didnt' need to push the gas in either.

The pump is really easy to get to although do not try to take the tank off like I did before I found the little removable plate cover under the carpet. I found that access hole after removing the driveline, the crossmember brace thing, the rear diff and the tank. Then I spotted the access holes. So much dirt in my eyes for nothing.

could also be the IAC stuck closed . Mine stuck open and was a PITA to figure out, opposite of yours, hard to start but then reved for the moon on it's own (well idled at 1500-1700).

How does it run once its started?

It runs fine after it runs for a few minutes at idle. I went to the Library and printed 13 pages of diagnosis code testing. I'm going to see what I can do with it. I'll keep everyone informed if I get it fixed or if it goes up for sale.

I'm thinking it might be the ECM. Voltage readings off the ECM to ground on the knock sensor wire is indicating this may be the case.
I have another Question why does the cooling fan come on every time the key is turned on, even when the car is cold?

I've pulled the codes there listed on the first post. 12, 21 ,22 ,32

Do you have defront on, head defrost, a/c?? Doesn't the temperature sensor trip the fans?

Defrost or a/c are not on.

I don't think i've mentioned this car has 246xxx miles on it. I'll have to take some pics it looks really good for the mileage. It is also getting horrible MPG.

Maybe you should do a full tune up if you haven't yet. Like replace the air filter (possible clean the MAF sensor as well) plugs, wires, pcv valve. Items like that.

I've changed fuel and air filter. The fuel economy is not the biggest issue though, it's the hard starting. Has anyone replaced an ECM?
I've had one go bad on a Cutlass I use to own and it wouldn't start at all. I know that they can give false reading if they are faulty. According to the test I've done there should be 3-4 volts at terminal #5 of connector B56 of the ECM. This is checking the signal to the knock sensor. If 3-4 volts is not present your to check terminals for poor contacts or replace ECM. The harness goes in tight and wire seem tight in connector. If anyone needs any of this info I can scan it. It came from ondemand5 which is Mitchel manuals on line. Let me know if you've had ECM problems. Thanks!

Even if the knock sensor is a issue I dont see it causing a hard starting issue. If you try premium technically it should work fine. Alot of times the knock sensor cracks. Ill bet if you check your's it will be cracked as well. It just just under the intake manifold, just remove the engine cover.

This is a crappy pic, but maybe a good suggestion it is usually where you see the bolt, he just relocated it( i might try that).

http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903 ... r_copy.jpg

Yea I know were it is located. I didn't say it was bad that is one of the codes though. I think something is wrong with the ECM giving a false reading that somthing is wrong with the sensor. I've got more testing to do before I buy anything. I will not buy a new ECM with the prices I've seen. If it is going to be anywere near $500 dollars to fix it it will go bye bye.

I still doubt it is the ECM though. Find another member on the parts shed list a WTB and find a good used one.

Another little tidbit, car was parked in garage overnight, it still didn't start right up but started much better than before. I'm going to try to video it and put it on you tube. I'll post the link when i get it on there. Maybe if it is heard it will help.

Here is the video link. Picture sucks it was dark. Don't even know if this will help anyone help me. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrvZ4on0uYUrl][/url]

Try this one.First one wont work.[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrvZ4on0 ... annel_page]][/url]

Try this one.First one wont work.[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrvZ4on0 ... annel_page]

Try this one.First one wont work.[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrvZ4on0 ... annel_page]