legacycentral bbs

There's a bit of a story if you're interested, but I did eventually (after writing all this!) determine to the best of my ability what the issue seems to be. Skip down to "Extensive diagnostics" if you're not in the mood for a story.

The Subject: 1992 Legacy L Sedan AWD N/A 5MT 267,000+ miles

First a note on my hill holder: In the past, the return spring on the PHV (Pressure Hold Valve) broke so my front left and rear right brakes were stuck on (that's the brake subsystem that the hill holder activates to hold the car when clutched in on an incline). I disconnected the hill holder PHV from the cable that goes to the clutch fork, essentially disabling the hill holder.

The adventure begins with a misjudged corner on an icy road--I struck a curb and fatally damaged my rear left wheel (I'm in the market for a new one, if you can help see this link). I immediately headed home and replaced all four wheels with my stock steels that have worn all season rubber on them.

On the road: I then had to run an errand for my father. I headed out on the snow covered road and felt the car sort of waddling left and right. Sort of shimmying back and forth, like it was struggling for traction, or someone was jerking the steering wheel left and right. I just assumed it was the road conditions. Then I got on the highway, which was clear, and the car started to do the same thing--now it was getting scary. I immediately got off the highway and headed to the nearest parking lot.

Parking lot repairs: I give my car a walk-around and notice that all the wheels are wet--except the front left wheel. Sure enough, it's hot. Sticking brake--but what the hell? That was the first brake caliper I rebuilt, it's the one on the front right that I hadn't rebuilt yet. I was annoyed, thinking that I hadn't rebuilt it right. I took the tire off and tried to pry the caliper piston in, sticking a tool inside the brake disk and pulling against the caliper. The assembly started to rotate the steering so I took my keys out of the car and locked the steering by jiggling the steering wheel. I pried again with all my might, pushing against the inner wheel well with my foot. I'm not very strong but that's still a lot of force on the end of an 8" tool.

Stuck: Satisfied, I put the wheel back on and tried to leave. I got stuck in the parking lot, but a Market Basket employee gave me a push and I got going. I was going to get right home and take my big C-clamp to the caliper, but I got seriously stuck again on an incline trying to get out. A passer-by in a Jeep kindly offered to push my car into the nearest lot, and I couldn't turn him down. I call a friend for help. Now I'm in front of a Burger King. I go in and grab a food tray, then jack up my car and slip it under the front left wheel. My friend arrives. I drive the car to the back of the lot. My fiend says my rear right wheel is locked too, and I am totally baffled. I lock my car and have my friend dive me home (but not before returning the tray ).

Research: So now I'm plowing through the .PDF Service Manual, looking over the brake system. Proportioning valve... No. Metering valve--no... I'm looking for the separation between the two brake subsystems (FL + RR brakes and FR + RL brakes). It's in the master cylinder. I price one online, $25 at a junk yard, not bad... Back to the service manual I look at the trouble shooting guide. "Brakes stay applied:" No, couldn't be that reason, no, no, what the hell is a PHV? Searching... Pressure Hold Valve, Hill Holder system--SON OF A BITCH!!:!: OF COURSE! Somehow the valve must have changed position during the impact of me curbing my wheel.

Recovery: My friend had a doctor's appointment so I had Mom drive me when she got home. I open the hood and turn the valve to the release position. Pulled out of the parking lot, no problem. On the road the car starts to shimmy again, I go slow. When I get home I immediately break out my infrared temperature sensor--I measure the temperature of the wheels and brake disks--they all read normal, and the same left to right. Well then what the hell? Hmm?


Extensive diagnostics: I secured the hill holder valve in place with small zip ties between the valve and the post that the missing return spring normally attaches too, so there's no way that should be an issue now. I go for a drive, the steering wheel is cocked left, the car shimmies, the car is trying to kill me I think. I agitate the side to side motion but adding some steering, and it turns out that I can feel that the car has complete traction (no snow on this road). The car makes no abnormal sounds. I take it home. I check all the lug nuts are tight, I check the rear left wheel bearing like I should have in the first place since it struck a curb. The wheel bearing is fine--I check them all, they're all tight. I checked a ton of stuff, see list below. Just before posting this topic I thought I'd take a few minutes to just look at the wheels, and I think I found the problem, the only item on the list in bold below.


Diagnostic Summary:

Bad:
- Car shimmies left and right
- Steering wheel cocked left
- All brakes drag a little, but equally (more in the front, probably due to brake size)
- Rear left wheel appears to have positive camber (wheel bottom tucked in)

Good:
- No abnormal sounds
- No abnormal vibrations
- Steering feels as tight and responsive as usual
- Rear left suspension is solid and straight
- Rear subframe is solid
- Wheel bearings are good
- Struts are good
- Tie rod play is normal
- Front, rear, and center differential action is normal
- Brakes behave normal, and lock up at the same time under hard braking


What to do? Taking this all into consideration, I think the issue, that is, the off camber rear left wheel, can only be the result of shifted mounting where that strut meet the knuckle, and/or a bent strut. I do have to ask, what the did I mess up in the steering that the steering wheel is cocked? I might not have messed up anything, the screwed up rear camber might just be pushing in such a way that I have to steer left to make the car go straight. What do you guys think? I should be able to check it out in greater detail since school starts again soon (I'm in an auto tech program).

Thanks for reading, and thanks for your help.

EDIT: Much grammar corrected.

Sounds like you have something bent in the rear, causing a toe issue, among others. When I first got my car on the road after the initial swap and having everything apart, it would wag it's tail going from pavement to ice/snow. This was cured by a proper four wheel alignment, as there was significant toe out on one side.


What do the tires look like in the rear? If it is bad enough you can see some "scrubbing" from the tire being far enough out of alignment.



If you "fatally" damaged your wheel, you most likely bent a lateral link or two, and possibly the strut body.

The rear left wheel has positive camber, and the toe is probably too positive as well. The lateral links are dead straight, I put a ruler up to them. I probably bent the strut, which sucks because I really don't want to replace struts.

Don't worry, replacing the struts is not difficult at all.

After hearing that I got a confidence boost. I checked the service manual and it does look easy. A junk yard 22 miles away has both the wheel I need and the strut, each $25 which is great. I just have to make sure that's the issue.

could it be a worn out cv joint in the front. when i got my car it would pull realy hard to either side sometimes and i thought i might die as well. i always had to have bith hands on the wheel. amd struts are farly easy to do. i have done them so many times i can do mine in about an hour and a half

Would a CV joint also make noise?

When I got my first subie (white '90 wagon) both rears had bent lower links, and it caused some severe handling issues. On turn in to a corner the rear end would duck walk to the outside of the corner, almost like a drift, then settle in on a new track

If you bent either the strut or the lateral links that would be the wandering problem and the steering wheel offset, due to the car dog tracking and trying to find a straight path when both rear wheels are going different directions. You said that it was waddling left and right, that could be a bent hub assy also, have you jacked it up and spun the wheel to see if it wobbles?

If the wheel tracks straight I'd compare your lateral links side to side, including at the hub and body mounts, and pull the tire and look at the strut, especially around the hub/strut mount. You might also check your Camber bolt and see if it spun to the negative position...

This SHOULD be an easy fix, but you might want to buy everything for that side (strut, hub, and laterals) just in case, you could have a little bend in everything adding up to the negative offset.

Good luck and please let us know the final fix. That's how we learn... and hopefully don't have to go thru the same thing all over again.

Also, if you need to remove the large bolt that holds the lateral links to the knuckle, you may want to have a new one on hand, depending on where you live. If you get any kind of winter, they can be a serious pain to get out without destroying it. It's worth the $18 to have a new one.

I have removed that bolt before, the service manual says I don't need to, but we'll see. I think I'll take my car in for an alignment, and if they can't get it straight then I'll replace the strut.

Soul Shinobi wrote:I have removed that bolt before, the service manual says I don't need to, but we'll see. I think I'll take my car in for an alignment, and if they can't get it straight then I'll replace the strut.

your just going to piss someone off over at the alligment shop and they might charge you. You OBVIOUSLY bent something in your rear suspension. I had the same thing happen to me when I tried pulling the old "Cole Trickle" move on a tight curbed road with a full load of passengers in my old GL sedan.
Its not fair to the poor bastard who tries to do the alligment and gets to the last wheel and is like WTF?!
do all of the checks that tahiti350 suggested first and start replacing parts. thats my .02

Holy crap, somehow I missed tahiti350 very helpful comment.

tahiti350 wrote: If you bent either the strut or the lateral links that would be the wandering problem and the steering wheel offset, due to the car dog tracking and trying to find a straight path when both rear wheels are going different directions. You said that it was waddling left and right, that could be a bent hub assy also, have you jacked it up and spun the wheel to see if it wobbles?

If the wheel tracks straight I'd compare your lateral links side to side, including at the hub and body mounts, and pull the tire and look at the strut, especially around the hub/strut mount. You might also check your Camber bolt and see if it spun to the negative position...

This SHOULD be an easy fix, but you might want to buy everything for that side (strut, hub, and laterals) just in case, you could have a little bend in everything adding up to the negative offset.

Good luck and please let us know the final fix. That's how we learn... and hopefully don't have to go thru the same thing all over again.

I ran the car on jacks and did notice the wheel wobbles a bit. I may very well have bent the hub, which sucks because I replaced that wheel bearing last year. The lateral links looked dead straight to me, I held a ruler up to them. I will get a strut soon because it's cheap and at the same place as the wheel I need. The www.car-part.com shows no deal on hubs near me so I guess that'll be a separate thing.

magicmike wrote:your just going to piss someone off over at the alligment shop and they might charge you. You OBVIOUSLY bent something in your rear suspension. I had the same thing happen to me when I tried pulling the old "Cole Trickle" move on a tight curbed road with a full load of passengers in my old GL sedan.
Its not fair to the poor bastard who tries to do the alligment and gets to the last wheel and is like WTF?!
do all of the checks that tahiti350 suggested first and start replacing parts. thats my .02

Also, I have an ace up my sleeve; you see, at the tech college the suspension class is in season as well, so I can have them diagnose it and maybe align it for free. I will let them know what's going on of course.

done that, and hard too. i cracked the rim but the only thing i bent was my left lower part of the knuckle. i can take a pic if you need it.

that was christmas a few years back, and because that happened i bought rims, and a turbo, and an intercooler, and started my journey into subies


the wheel was pushed way in at the bottom and it made a pretty loud noise consistent with speed, drove straight though

I'm finally going to have it looked at on Friday (hopefully) by the suspension class at my tech college. I scored a whole strut assembly for $25! I can't wait for this thing to drive straight, the rear end having a mind of its own is really tiring.

EDIT: I noticed just today that the damaged corner of the car is lower than the others. The bounce test was actually stiffer on that corner so I don't think the strut is blown, but it's very likely that it's damaged in some other way (bent I guess).