legacycentral bbs

Just purchased a 2003 Subaru Legacy Special Edition Wagon, 5 speed manual. 170k miles.. Growls in neutral and in gear. Clutch in - silent. I got a deal on the car so I cant complain. Needed new plugs.. the old ones were worn to like 0.071". Gonna change the timing-belt and water pump for good measure.

The car does as a matter of fact through some circumstances have a 3 year, 36k miles bumper to bumper. However, I find it hard to trust a shop.

So dropping the drive train I guess. Should I replace the rear main seal at the same time? If this were a Honda (what I work on) I would.. Never worked on a 2.5h.

I guess I should check the transmission fluid level first though huh

Sounds like the input shaft bearing alright. Mine is doing the same thing. Go ahead and replace the rear main seal while you're at it. Just make sure its in there evenly and flush. Don't push it in all the way. While its out check to see if the access hole plate behind tye flywheel is leaking. They leak a lot on 1st gens but they have plastic covers that crack. Yours might be metal and not have this problem. If it is plastic you can get the new metal one but you'll also need the different bolts that go with the metal one. I believe they're the same bolts as the oil pan bolts.

I'd check the throw out bearing as well and maybe the pilot bearing if you're going in there. Are you going to check/replace the clutch? If that's the orginal clutch, it may be worth replacing so you don't have to drop the trans again.....just a thought.

Thanks for the replies. I haven't pulled anything apart yet. Just picked up the car 2 days ago. Talked a lot of the price off the car because of the noise.. enough to cover a used transmission if need be. Clutch could have already been replaced..170k miles.. throwout and pilot bearing would be replaced regardless of what shape the clutch looks.. probably would be dumb not too.

I have been reading and it seems the input shaft bearings have been a problem off and on with these manual transmission. Fluid looks good... No chunks though again the fluid could have just been changed to try to "fix" the noise.

So at this point... The trans needs dropped either way. I guess my options are try to fix this one or source a used one for $500 - $700... Also a gamble.

This is my first Subaru.. if this was a Honda I would be replacing parts in the original trans... Though I have no clue in this case. Do a fluid change and drive it until it bricks.. just plan on a used transmission...or take it apart now and maybe get lucky replacing a couple seals and a bearing or 2... Just don't want to do a bunch of work only to be pulling it all back apart again to fix more failed bearings.. or replacing the trans anyway... Iť

Any opinions from some salty old Subaru transmission gurus?

How bad is the noise? I've had a similar noise on my 97 Impreza and I've been driving it that way for several years. It certainly is not the quiestest transmission, but the noise has gotten a little quieter with time. I attribute that to the type of fluid that was in there previously and what's in now.

I'm running Subaru's own Xtra-S gear oil. Out of the stuff I've tried, including high dollar synthetics, it works the best in these transmissions.

How loud is so subjective lol... Its certainly noticeable to me..clutch in, engine idle is quiet (i mean other than the normal sewing machine 4cyl engine noise).. let the clutch out in neutral the transmission can be heard spinning... Raspy sounding contant noise(like a worn bearing obviously) goes up and down with rpm.. no clicks or pops or binding sounds. Can be heard inside the car. In 1st, 2nd or 3rd during acceleration the noise is the loudest.. I would say 50/50 engine/transmission noise. 4th or 5th at highway speeds light load can't really hear it for wind noise.Everything ffunctions properly.. a deaf person would be none the wiser asside from perhaps a very very slight vibration in the shifter that you can only feel with your hand on it which may be normal.

Sorry for all the posts... I have mechanical OCD real bad.. and some possibly some buyers remorse.. specially for a car I just picked up on Sat. lol. I'm sitting here typing on my phone in the middle of a meeting shhh

Ill upload a YouTube video when I get home.

Thanks again!

PS

Nice forum... Not filled with jerks which 90% of the Honda forums are.

I would say it's a safe bet you've got a bad bearing. How much work are you willing to do? Pulling the transmission and cracking it open is no easy task. I did it last summer. But since I wanted it back on the road right away I didn't take the time to order a new bearing and I'm still listening to it. It doesn't bother me that much but I still notice it a lot. I had another legacy which was twice as loud and that I wouldn't be able to turn the radio up for. I think it'll last just about forever like that. I've put 20K miles on mine like this so far and who knows how long the previous owner of this transmission listened to it. If the transmission didn't have the transfer case it would be a lot easier to take apart. That shift fork and figuring out where to position it sucks and I wound up taking it apart again because it wouldn't shift the first time I put it back together.

Work doesnt scare me a bit. I've pulled several engines and transmissions in my day. Rebuilt engines... But have never cracked open a transmission.. could be fun! lol

So on this car. Am I wrong saying transmission, transfer case, and front diff use a common gear oil supply? The rear is separate of course.. I guess what I am getting at... If I wanted to do a transmission oil change I am only pulling the Plug over the Y in the exhaust... That drains the tranny, then I fill it through the small dipstick on top. This does the transfer case also or is there a separate drain/fill for that?

I read somewhere about a front and rear diff. Oil change.. and it called for 1.5qt in the front and 1.5qt in the rear.. but 1.5 seems like a small amount if its doing the whole transmission as well.

Don't have a service manual yet... Forgive me.

That's right. The manual trans has one 75w90 gear oil supply. 3.7qts but mine actually took a full 4 but I'm assuming 3.7qts if is you drain and fill in the vehicle, whereas I started with a dry split case so it took more. There's fluid that won't drain inside the diff I think.

Fluid capacities can be found here: http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic. ... capacities

Maybe I was looking at the auto tranny. ATF and then Front and Rear diff oil in the autos? Anyway.. 75w90 GL5, 4 qt. I have also seen 80w90 GL5 specified. Any benefit? Maybe less noise? Where I live it rarely gets below 20F so cold gear changes shouldn't be a problem. In Honda world a little change like that can be the difference between a smooth shift and no shift.. though Honda transmissions use motor oil (AKA Honda MTF) so a whole different beast there.

I'll drain the oil out tonight and post pics of the findings. I'll also do a little video so you all can hear exactly what I am hearing. Hopefully I can get an idea of exactly how bad the wear is and if its an immediate tare down kind thing or a summer time project.

My experience these 5spd need specific oil in them like extra-s from the dealer because of the synchros will not work properly and you might develop grinding in between shifts.

My ex drives a 2000 civic lx and I actually replaced her input shaft bearing while I was doing a clutch job on it. Pretty easy on a honda. Not so easy on a subaru due to awd and weight. Transmission probably weighs twice as much and twice as many things to disconnect and unbolt. Afterwards everything was nice and quiet.

Never had anything but the syncros go bad in my Hondas. Twice in the 99 Civic.. but it was running 21psi of boost on a regular basis. Then a rod bearing over heated and spun which caused low pressure on all the bearings and they all got hot. rods were bent.. oh man bad. Got new i bean rods, pistons, new crank.. just gotta get the block bored.. anyway whoa...

anyway.. changed the gear oil.

The good the bad and the ugly.

The good... the transmission still shifts good after the fluid change. Just like it should.

The bad... still makes the same noise.. BUT.. maybe slightly better in the higher gears... maybe just a tad quieter.

The ugly... what I found in the used oil and on the plug... ugh. lots of paste.. that's ok.. but then a shaving.. rather large.

Heres some pics.
http://spdweb.net/index.php/auto-blog-1 ... l-problems

That is pretty big. I wonder what its from.

Yeah I dunno where that chunk came from.. but I bet it has gone through the input shaft bearing.

When I have some time I'll pull the trans apart and see what I can see. Hopefully I can just replace some parts and button it back up.

Until then.. I am gonna drive it. Though judging by the state of that fluid.. and the completely worn flat plugs I removed.. I bet the timing belt is 60k over due as well.

Alright... Transmission is out and torn down. Rear input shaft bearing is toast. A good 16th" of play in it. Unfortunately getting to the bearing is proving to be the easy part. I cant find a replacement for it anywhere. I would like to replace both input shaft bearings plus all the seals. Input shaft seal I can find, axle seals of course. Having trouble finding the shift rod seal and also the bearings.

Anyone know of any parts suppliers that may carry these parts?

2003 Legacy, trans code fm-7

Thanks

Google the part number off the bearing. There are bearing houses that sell bearings that should have one that fits.

Thanks for the quick reply. The smaller front bearing has a size lasered onto it. Which I can find.. but there are a couple difficulties. It has no inner race.. it uses the shaft as the inner race.. but thats ok.. I can still find one that size. However, it also has a hole drilled through the outer race that lines up with a pin in the transmission housing. That makes it pretty propriatary. I can probably get around that by simply removing the pin from the transmission housing though I may run the risk of the bearing walking out.

The rear bearing however is prooving to be the difficult one. It has no part number or size anywhere on it. It also has an off-set inner race, as well as a groove machined in the outer race for a C clip. I am afraid this may be a subaru only part. Though... AAMCO.. and Jaspers and all the other transmission rebuilders must be getting parts somewhere.

My local dealer says there are no parts available for that transmission... though they will sell me a whole unit for $5500 lol

If I'm looking at the parts diagram correctly and you want the input main shaft front bearing, the part # is 806427060. it's $23.91 at www.subarugenuineparts.com

As for the rear, look at these two diagrams and tell me what you need and I'll get you the part #

http://main.experiencetherave.com/subar ... blowup.jpg
http://main.experiencetherave.com/subar ... t_assy.jpg

Also, if you can get me the build date of the car, that will help confirm I'm giving you the correct part #'s.

Good grief.. I have been on subarugenuineparts.com and I couldn't find a thing. I have been trying to browse parts by category but clicking on "manual transaxle" just brings up 2 listings for transaxle assemblies, not a listing of parts like I would expect. When I put in the part number you gave for the front bearing it does come up though. Thanks!

The rear bearing I need is #14 on your second diagram. I found a part number hiding on the inside edge of the bearing which appears to be. DAC2565-INS subarugenuineparts doesnt seem to have that one. The search continues.

Thanks for your help!

If you have an EJ25# the part # is 806225170 and is $26.80. (The # would be like an EJ251 or EJ253) This bearing is a ball bearing.

If you have an EJ255 the part # is 806325100 and is $55.67. It's more because it's a needle bearing.

You should be able to look at the bearing and tell whether it's a ball or needle bearing an have the correct part #'s.

Josh you have been a great help. This is the ball bearing set. I wonder if the needle/roller bearing is the same dimensions as I would love to use it over the ball bearing if I could. Is the Ej255 a later revision or stronger transmission that you know of? Obviously there is a weakness in this ball bearing. It may stem from a lack of lubrication since it sits high up in the case. Also, I have to ask.. where are you getting these part numbers? Apparently the whole Subaru part number schema is lost on me. This is my first Subaru out of a plethora of Honda's and I have never had this much trouble looking up and finding parts. I cant even find a transmission code stamped on this housing anywhere. 'Japan' and 'FM-7' is all I can find.

I must say I am very pleased with the Subaru thus far. Thats saying a lot coming from someone with mechanical OCD like myself HA.

The needle bearing may work....if you can find a dealer with both in stock, you could check them out to see if the physical dimensions are the same.

I'm getting the part numbers from Subaru's electronic parts catalog, which is identical to what the Subaru dealers use. So if the dealer says they don't sell the bearing, they either are incompetent and don't know how to use the parts catalog, or they are lying to you.

Well.. Just went with the ball bearing. It held up for over 100k miles thus far. If the new one holds up for another 100 we'll be doing good.

Heres what I ordered.

BALL BEARING
[Part#: 806225170]

NEEDLE BRG 27X46X21
[Part#: 806427060]

GSKT SEAL KIT MT
[Part#: 32001AA060]

RADIAL BALL BEARING CLU
[Part#: 30502AA051]

BALL BRG 12X32X10
[Part#: 806212020]

Let us know when you get them, and if you can take some pictures.