E-85 Conversion

Legwerx · Post by **Legwerx** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:09 am

So I have a 2.0 block, with 2.2T heads running the stock 2.2 NA ECU that came in the car with a legacy turbo running 8psi.

Question:

I have some t leg injectors in my garage, I want to either step the boost up to 10 psi or run e-85.

If I just swapped injectors would it be enough fuel to run full tanks of e85? Or would I be better off with a super air fuel controller?

e85 isn't a must, just seeing what my options are...

Rick

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:17 am

You'd need a standalone to tune for it, but moreover, you'd need to replace your fuel lines as the alcohol is more corrosive.

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:37 am

Why do you want to run E85?

I don't know what the stock injectors in your car flow -- is it an auto or a manual? -- but let's for the moment pretend they flow the same as a 92-up NA. That is, about three quarters as much as the turbo injectors. So turbo injectors flow about 33% more than non-turbo injectors.

E85's stoichiometric air/fuel ratio is about 9.8:1. That is, about 50% more fuel than with gasoline.

So, no. You'd need more fuel. Interestingly, if you put in a 3-bar fuel pressure regulator (which is more common than our 2.5-bar setup), you'd be at about the right amount of fuel. I wonder if a new-age Subaru FPR would bolt up.

Legwerx · Post by **Legwerx** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:12 am

Ok, I was thinking e85 for the mere fact that it's almost a buck cheaper a gallon out here...

It is manual.

So if I just drop in these injectors and run just regular 91 octane fuel, will it be able to run about 10 psi and not run wicked rich at idle?

I'm trying to avoid stand alones, etc, just seeing how far I can get on the stock ecu.

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:14 am

I don't understand how you can be running 8 psi of boost with stock non-turbo engine management right now.

Legwerx · Post by **Legwerx** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:35 am

Neither do I, but it runs, and freaking hauls for a wagon.

It actually seems to run rich all the time, it starts running out of fuel at 9psi though....

93forestpearl · Post by **93forestpearl** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:41 am

I've got a friend running E85 in his '06 WRX. He says it takes about 25% more fuel with E85. No troubles with the lines or anything. He installed some injectors in the 8**cc range to handle it. He runs as much boost as the little TD04 will put out, with a ton of timing. 249whp and 350lb-ft. Pretty wild for a TD04.

The main problem is that each tank of E85 isn't the same. The mix varies tank by tank, so he had to adjust his injector scaling each fillup. Vehicles that can run it from the factory have a way of knowing what the gas to ethanol mix is so it runs properly no matter what the ratio is.

He uses Enginiuity(now called RomRaider). New cars are too damn easy.

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:59 am

Legwrx - On what are you basing that judgement?

BXSS · Post by **BXSS** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:11 pm

I've heard of folks running E85 instead of gasoline by using injectors that had double the stock flow on stock ECUs (somewhere a while back).

Lines did not have to get changed as our gas is already mixed with 10% ethanol in some areas & is supposed to be ethanol compatible.
Methanol is much more corrosive than ethanol.
The car had to run E85 only - it was not flex fuel.

It makes sense based on 93forestpearl & vrg3 say.

Power output was insane - basically alky inj on steroids.
I wish we had E85 in NYC as I would try this.

Legwerx · Post by **Legwerx** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:08 am

Well I can tell I am running rich when my MPG drop, when my car reeks of unburned fuel, plugs foul quickly, and I am also somewhat watching my narrow band O2. And at 9 psi fuel starts to drop and it slows down, could be fuel cut, but it doesn't act like one.

I might just swap a t leg ECU into it, doesn't seem all that hard according to the post below (in ECU questions thread)

Rick

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:10 am

What you're describing as symptoms of running rich look to me like symtoms of misfire.

It does seem silly to run a turbo engine without turbo engine management.

Legwerx · Post by **Legwerx** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:00 pm

Well a misfire would make the car run like crap and idle rough, right? It runs fine....and all the plugs are fouled evenly....

I've run a few cars without turbo ECU's and they all have been fine. But now I want to make some power and be a little more reliable, so a turbo ECU makes sense.

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:16 pm

A misire at idle will make the car idle rough, yes. But I'm not suggesting your car is misfiring at idle. I'm suggesting it's misfiring at the times that you seem to think it's running rich.

As for your second paragraph, I simply don't believe you, unless you're omitting some other engine management modifications you made.

Legwerx · Post by **Legwerx** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:57 pm

That's fine, but this car has been running like this for 6 months...

I turbo'ed a 78 datsun 280z, with no mods to engine except tweaking the flapper maf running 8 psi on a non turbo ecu.

Turbo'ed an 84 GL wagon with ea82 na engine in it, worked fine after the oil cooler issue was worked out, 9.5:1 compression with 7 psi....

See I have an advantage, I live in Colorado (mile high) and can get away with running these setups.

But if you don't believe me, that's up to you, I'm not gonna cry.

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:15 pm

Hehehe...

Oh. You left out the crucial information that your car stays a mile above sea level.

In that case, your EJ20 at 8 psi is actually probably only ingesting about 20% more air than a stock non-turbo EJ22 at sea level, at only slightly higher combustion pressures, which is not terribly far outside the bounds of stock EJ22 engine management.

Okay. So now your question about swapping in turbo injectors and running 10 psi: you will run rich at idle, no way around that if you're using fat injectors and refuse to do any other modifications. But at the high end, they would probably be able to handle maybe 30 to 40 percent more boost than the stock injectors.

But, if you just threw on a rising rate fuel pressure regulator, you'd get reasonable fuel flow at any reasonable boost pressure.

Legwerx · Post by **Legwerx** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:10 pm

Yeah, I was thinking about a RRFPR, but I am thinking I want to run E-85 more and more, gas went up more and there are more stations that have it.

But for now I am thinking just put a t leg ECU in it, and then convert it.....

unless you think that a RRFPR and t leg injectors on the stock 2.2 na ECU would work...

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:56 pm

Would work for what? Running E85 with moderate boost? I don't think it would work by itself, but if you add a 3-bar FPR it might. The 3-bar FPR and the turbo injectors would kind of sort of make up for the different air/fuel ratio required by E85. The RRFPR would handle enriching the mixture for boost.

Legwerx · Post by **Legwerx** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:36 pm

Yeah, to run E-85....

I see no problem running e-85 with a RRFPR provided I get a wide band o2 and "tune" the RRFPR...

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:02 pm

You see no problem in leaning your mixture out by like 50%?

93forestpearl · Post by **93forestpearl** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:39 pm

Its not any cheaper to run E85 since you use about 25-30% more fuel. The advantage is the 105 octane it provides.

Post by **Legacy777** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:41 am

Yeah....there's only around 75% of the energy in Ethanol, that there is in the same amount of gasoline.

James614 · Post by **James614** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:29 am

93forestpearl wrote:Its not any cheaper to run E85 since you use about 25-30% more fuel. The advantage is the 105 octane it provides.

Actually, the advantage is the millions (billions?) of dollars GM saves each year by only having the 15% of gasoline burned during an EPA test on E85 count towards their CAFE consumption. And, of course, to the corn farmers who get paid buckets of cash each year to put more fossil fuel energy into making their ethanol than the ethanol itself provides.

[/end hijack]

I've actually been curious about running my car on E85, but yeah, that 30% hit on fuel economy is makes it out of the question. I'd rather run on race gas.

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:50 am

The corn farmers have been massively subsidized to overgrow for years. Ever drink a soda in another country and see 'sugar' instead of 'corn syrup' under ingredients? The shit is everywhere. It leads to a whole completely rotten agricultural mess of stupidity and sweet-heart deals we've got here, but I'll just leave at like that for now.

James614 · Post by **James614** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:39 am

I've actually gone to great lengths to get myself soda with sugar instead of corn syrup. Never been to another country though, just had some Kosher/Passover Coke here. Probably would've been easier to go to another country than to find it here, though

93forestpearl · Post by **93forestpearl** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:03 am

E85 is attractive to me since its like cheap race gas. Also much more readily available. One just needs the injector capability to run it and if you are really picky, you should adjust your injector scaling each time you fill up on the stuff, since each tank is not created equal.

A local guy has been tuning STi's on stock turbos with E85 to a around 340-350 lb-ft. Each car is different though. That was with roughly 800cc injectors running at 77% duty cycle.

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E-85 Conversion

E-85 Conversion