My dad drove my car...

Nomake Wan · Post by **Nomake Wan** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:44 pm

...and now I'm worried. I had parked behind him the night before, hoping he'd move it into the garage in the morning. What I found out from him last night was that when he moved it, there was no power steering and the brakes didn't work. He stopped the car by turning it off.

This is really worrying me. It was really frigid outdoors, but I literally just had the brake fluid changed. As in, a few weeks ago I had the fluid changed. There shouldn't be any moisture in the system freezing it... and as for the power steering, I have no clue.

But that's what he said happened. No power steering at all, and the brake pedal was as hard as a rock and did nothing at all.

I'm trying to piece this together... it only seems to happen when it's really cold outside, and I've never experienced any of this myself. I'm going by what he said.

Help?

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:11 pm

Hmm, that doesn't make sense. I don't know why power steering would fail just because of very cold temperatures, unless some hose or seal broke. Any ATF on the ground?

Is it possible the brakes worked but the power assist didn't? A couple board members have had power brakes fail when it's very cold. Sometimes it recovers after a few hard presses of the pedal or after the engine warms up. In at least one case it was tracked down to an iced up check valve in the brake booster hose.

dzx · Post by **dzx** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:33 pm

I've noticed a couple times lately when its really cold outside my brakes won't work for a little while. Then i'll be stepping on them as hard as i can and they'll start to work which results in my head snapping forward.

No idea on the power steering one, you probably checked the fluid level right?

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:01 pm

Did you use good brake fluid? Bad brake fluid + moisture in the system = Freezing. The fluid doesn't freeze, the water does though.

Yukonart · Post by **Yukonart** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:06 pm

Did he actually START the car?

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:12 pm

Weak PS pumps could fail to do much when very cold. As for brakes, I'd think frozen bad fluid or was there driving rain? Maybe ice on the rotors? My fresh brakes bite like a pitbull on a kitten even at the -30 degrees we've gotten recently.

Steve

Nomake Wan · Post by **Nomake Wan** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:54 pm

Yes, Yukon, he started the car. ^-^;

It also didn't stall as he was trying to stop, either; as I said, he had to turn the car off to stop (didn't want to lunch the trans and forgot about the e-brake?).

I forgot that the brakes were powered. Evolution, I just got the fluid replaced a few weeks ago, and it's in great condition. It had been parked in the driveway, so I doubt that there's anything on the rotors. Besides, I said that the pedal was as hard as a rock but did nothing. That's what's making me think that it's a Brake Booster issue. I once felt the brakes do something similar when it was very cold... I was coming up to a stop sign going uphill and the pedal didn't move like I was used to.

With power steering, I have no idea what's wrong. I haven't checked to see if there's any fluid on the ground, but there doesn't seem to be any where it used to be parked.

Again, these are extremely cold conditions where it's been left in these sub-zero temperatures for an extended period of time... and it doesn't happen anytime except under that condition. The power steering failure is a new problem, though; the brake pedal being hard as a rock and not working isn't--it happened the last time my dad tried to use my car in extremely cold temperatures.

I'll have to see if the car's still doing it and take a peek under the hood. I'm sure that the cause is the cold temperature, and I'm pretty sure that it's the power assist functions of both the steering and brakes that's failing.

So, in specific, is there anything that the cold would do to a Power Steering pump or a Brake Booster?

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:08 am

You mean that in order to stop the car from rolling, he had to turn it off because the brakes wouldn't work?

Just because the fluid was changed, doesn't mean it's in great condition. It could have been improperly bled, and air in the line will condense bringing moisture into the system, and that could freeze, causing the brakes to "not work".

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:01 am

The firm pedal is what made me think 'ice'. I've seen it on a Honda with open-spoke wheels with driving freezing rain just before a temp drop (this is MA - I've seen temp drops of almost 40 degrees in 15 mins). The brakes just didn't do much and he had to push the hell out of them, finally they started to bite and got better fairly quickly once that happened. The evidence for ice is a little anecdotal, but there was a lot of steam and dripping water from the brakes when he pulled over to check. The problem didn't return.

I don't know what about the cold taxes the PS pump so much other than stiffer steering and fluid. I guess that can be enough for an old pump.

Steve

Nomake Wan · Post by **Nomake Wan** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:43 am

I would hope that the fluid change was done properly for the brakes... Meh.

I've got steel wheels on... I don't think there was much of anything getting in there for the brakes to freeze over, but maybe. Then again, when my brakes work properly, the pedal's never rock hard. It's quite soft until you get to the very bottom, but by then you've probably been flung forward in your seat. ^-^;

professor · Post by **professor** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:38 pm

your hydraulic systems froze up, I believe it is that simple. The power steering fluid likely contains significant water because it has been in there for many years. If it is cloudy that cloudiness is most often minute water droplets, and power steering fluid always seems to be filthy to me.

Water contamination of hydraulic systems is very common in very cold climates, in fact some systems are charged with water-soluble hydraulic fluids in these environments because freeze-up becomes such a problem. With conventional fluids, the water simply crystallizes out when very cold and makes an ice blockage or jams a valve and your done until it warms up.

Few people, and shops, change brake fluid thoroughly. Vacuum devices are a short-cut and help remove the bulk of the fluid, but a quickie fluid change using these devices is not nearly as good, no self-respecting racer would be satisfied with changing the fluid without moving the cylinders, yet shops do this all the time, one man can do it without help, but it is not as good. The fluid short-circuits through the cylinder and leaves a lot of crap old fluid.

Try one of the colored fluids DOT 4 and do it the old fashoined way, pump pump pump and your brake problem will be solved.

Nomake Wan · Post by **Nomake Wan** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:54 am

Well, I've driven her around, and she's been in the garage now for a while, and I don't get any of the problems he's talking about. I don't know; whenever he gets in the car, there's some problem. But when I drive her, it's smooth sailing.

Thanks for all the help, guys. I agree that it was probably hydraulic freeze.

And if I don't have to buy any more replacement parts, I'll be getting those nice stainless steel lines I want...

LaureltheQueen · Post by **LaureltheQueen** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 2:13 am

maybe the car just doesn't like him. My 91 didnt like my mom's gf very much

Nomake Wan · Post by **Nomake Wan** » Tue Jan 25, 2005 3:18 am

Maybe. After all, he keeps trying to steal it away from me. XD

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My dad drove my car...

My dad drove my car...