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Splinter · Post by **Splinter** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:31 pm

The oil reserves are not replenished. It takes tens of thousands of years for oil to form.

the 'new' oil reserves are extremely difficult to get to, making them produce very expensive oil. This is going to be useless to consumers.

Go take a course on environmental systems at your local community college before you guys start spouting off a bunch of BS. Just ebcause you dont THINK something could happen, it doesnt make it true. Personal opinion is not a basis for fact.

wiscon_mark · Post by **wiscon_mark** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:04 pm

Splinter, I put the word "replenished" in quotes for a reason. I obviously didn't mean that the earth gave us a new truckload of oil in the last 100 years, only that we've discovered more of it, basically. The process for converting these reserves is now efficient enough for it to be cost effective to refine this oil.

But like I said, I don't really support us being more wasteful with it, just because we have a little more of it now. I'd like to see the National average for fuel economy go up 10mpg in the next couple years, although realistically, that won't happen unless we, as americans (or Canadians, or Chinese, but mostly Americans) need to make an effort in our Capitolist economy to shape the market that way.

Splinter · Post by **Splinter** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:10 pm

It'll get forced that way.

As oil reserves go down, gas prices will continue to climb, possibly exponentially.

People will demand cars with better fuel economy, and not too far down the line, alternative fuels (LH2 is my guess). Im not too concerned about wasting oil, because it is a non-renewable resource and no matter what, we will run out of it. Once we do, everything is pretty screwed up. Sit down and think for a minute about all the different products around you that rely on oil

A very short list would be: pharmaceuticals, plastics, electricity, fresh vegetables + fruit, computers, refridgerators, microwaves and convenience foods

What I personally have a problem with is the inefficient burning of oil, creating nasty chemicals for us to breath in, and to strip the paint off our homes.

I know the planet will survive us. As far as species go, human beings aren't very resilient, and we'll be one of the first to die off as the environment gets harsher. So it's us I'm concerned about.

wiscon_mark · Post by **wiscon_mark** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:12 pm

I agree with you on that, I know it will eventually go that way...I just wish we would have some foresight and make it easier to cope later on.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:12 pm

And if the environmental systems course is run by a bunch of liberal tree hugging non-bathed hippies, then what? You'll have a different point of view than students who went to the conservative run course. The problem is, not many right-wingers are involved with the education system. They're too busy working, building businesses, and improving their own status to want to live off of taxpayer money for the rest of their lives.

There's not enough balance in education to give fair debates and different opinions. Things are just presented to us and we take them as fact because there's no thought involved. Put food in front of us, we'll eat it. Tell us something's true, we'll believe. Try raising a child and tell them everyday that the world is evil, not to talk to other people because they have germs, and Chinese food causes cancer. 18 years later you'll have quite the anti-social clean freak hiding in your basement that will never know the joy of take-out.

wiscon_mark · Post by **wiscon_mark** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:14 pm

somebody has been listening to too much Rush Limbaugh.

If you think for a second...who controls the government? The conservatives...who pays the public schools? The government...yeah, they don't have a say in public education

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:24 pm

And Al Franken, Mark Belling, CNN, NBC, CBS, FOX, National Review, Daily Kos, Newsweek, Tyme Magazine, US News, the list goes on. I look for as many points of view and make a decision based on my own rules of logic. I have a very good built in B.S. detector. My gaydar seems to be failing a little bit though.

What do you know about Maha Rushie? How often do you listen to him?

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:26 pm

Who's controlled the HOR for the last 25 years until recently? Democrats.

Who pays the public schools? Taxpayers.

wiscon_mark · Post by **wiscon_mark** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:27 pm

I don't listen to him much at all, but I have family that does, and they think he's "the shit"

I really can't stand their born-again christian, I'm-always-right, you're-going-to-hell views...and they frequently repeat Limbaugh's druggie BS.

Sorry, he's not necessarily a "druggie" (anymore) but I really don't like all the hate he portrays towards a group of people (blacks) that he doesn't even understand.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:38 pm

Oh, he does. At least more than Hillary the plantation owner does. Listen to his program for a week or two. Make a decision then. And he holds NO hate for ANYONE based on the color of their skin or where they're from. I thought he was all B.S. until I actually bothered to listen to him. Some things make sense, some I don't agree with. But I hear more different points of view that were previously unavailable to me through the monotonous Big League media with their mind controlling agenda. I stand (actually sit and type) before you as a free thinker who has broken down the gate of the mental plantation I was imprisoned in and saw the world as it really is. Beautiful, bright, and full of opportunities.

Splinter · Post by **Splinter** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:43 pm

My school isnt run by democrats or republicans, I'm Canadian.

My instructor IS an insane tree hugging hippy, so I take everything she says with a whole bowl of salt, but its not hard to see for anyone with a nugget of intelligence that there has to be a limited supply of oil on the planet, and that there has to be consequences to polluting the atmosphere.

I havent gone running naked through the forest lately, and I even eat at McDonalds sometimes. Im not exactly waht you'd call a hippy.

I represent an almost non-existant group of people who see both sides of the argument and know they're both bullshit. But in order to be one of us, you have to know both sides of the argument. Watching CNN isn't going to do that for you.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:45 pm

Canadians have been led by a liberal government for quite some time.

What do you think of your new president?

Splinter · Post by **Splinter** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:11 pm

What does that have to do with anything?

The climate and condition of the atmosphere doesnt give a shit about what lump of carbon chains is in 'power'

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:19 pm

On the contrary. All these hurricanes have been occuring because of Bush. He didn't sign the Kyoto protocol.

Subtle · Post by **Subtle** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:22 pm

Wow--all I did was note that there was snow on the daffodils, then later in the day saw that San Fransisco had some snow.

I didn't deny that mean global temperature has been increasing, just pointed out that it is not "man made". As in how did it get so warm up to about 1300 AD, without an industrialized culture to force it?

As Confucious might have said "Mind like parachute--works best when open"

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:31 pm

Indeed.

"Man who stands on toilet -- high on pot"

Subtle · Post by **Subtle** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:44 pm

ho-ho

Good one - I've been sitting around all day hoping to get over a cold

and this thread has been entertaining.

Splinter · Post by **Splinter** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:08 pm

Anyone who thinks climate is a stable system should be shot.

There are plenty of uneducated people in both parties.

Subtle · Post by **Subtle** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:16 pm

B. Sc. in geophysics

It's all about plate tectonics, volcanoes, physics of the upper atmosphere
and-- the history of ice ages and their explanation

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:17 pm

It changes constntly. If it was stable, people would really bitch when its 5 degrees cooler than the same day last year. Or cloudy when its supposed to be sunny. People will always complain about the weather when they want something different. But then again, wouldn't it get a little boring if it was 75 and cloudy with 50% humidity every day?

Manarius · Post by **Manarius** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:55 pm

Hippy hating republican...lol Laurel.

Just so you know, I'm registered blue, but I don't believe in this whole "save the environment" stuff. I'll burn gas how I want and use my car 'cause I can. Not all us Liberals are flaming hippies who put flowers on shit.

But, I hate Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh. They've got their heads shoved so far up their asses they don't know right from left.

wiscon_mark · Post by **wiscon_mark** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 3:31 am

Manarius wrote:Hippy hating republican...lol Laurel.

Just so you know, I'm registered blue, but I don't believe in this whole "save the environment" stuff. I'll burn gas how I want and use my car 'cause I can. Not all us Liberals are flaming hippies who put flowers on shit.

But, I hate Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh. They've got their heads shoved so far up their asses they don't know right from left.

Yeah, I'd say that's true of me too. If you believe for a second that all "liberals" are flaming homo-loving, hippy, never-take-a-shower, don't shave the armpits (girls), flower power, Al Sharpton whorshiping, Prius driving, marxist left wingers, then you're stereotyping the shit out of me. And that's what Rush and Sean and Ann are trying to convince America; that every liberal is a dirty communist bastard.

Anyways, Richard, I hope you know that I respect your opinion, and I don't dislike you because we're politically in disagreement. You're still a Wisconsinite, and that counts for something

Splinter · Post by **Splinter** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 4:13 am

At either extreme end of the political spectrum you'll find dirty nature-freaks who never shower

Hippies->Hillbillies

All things are cyclical.

wiscon_mark · Post by **wiscon_mark** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 4:31 am

exactly. I am neither.

thefultonhow · Post by **thefultonhow** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 4:42 am

Richard wrote:Yes, the planet seems to be getting warmer. Which is causing it to get cooler. With all the influences that take place within and outside Earth's atmosphere, it could ONLY be gas guzzling SUV's. Not the fact that we've been dealing with increased solar output. Not to mention the fact that every time a major volcano erupts, more particulate and gases are emitted into the atmosphere than ALL THE EMISSIONS FROM AUTOMOBILES SINCE THE DAY THEY WERE INVENTED COMBINED. Unchecked coal fires in North Korea? Nah. Giant forest fires in Russia/Siberia? Couldn't be. Its gotta be that GMC.

You make a valid point that human actions have contributed only a small amount to the greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. However, the planet's ecosystem has worked very well for millions of years with the amount of greenhouse gases that were there before. Since about 1850, we've been adding to that amount, thus throwing the ecosystem off balance.

Now, can we suddenly change our lifestyle and not burn any fuel? No. Can we change our lifestyle in small ways in order to reduce our ecological footprint? Yes. "That GMC" isn't a necessity to soccer moms everywhere; it's a luxury. They could do things just as well with a CRD station-wagon, or even a minivan with a more-frugal V6 instead of a V8.

I'm not going to say that everybody should get rid of their cars and walk everywhere. That's completely unrealistic. But things like using more efficient cars, carpools, mass transit, etc. are small changes that start to add up. Using nuclear and hydroelectric power instead of coal-fired plants is an even bigger change that will get rid of a significant portion of our greenhouse gas production. (Unfortunately, the greenies don't like either of those power production methods.)

And in the end, consuming a bit less can't really hurt us, so why shouldn't we do so?

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