Hard Starting and Smoking

Mulletbob · Post by **Mulletbob** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:37 am

Hey everyone...I just bought my first car, a '91 Legacy L Wagon not too long ago and it's got some weird things going on with it.

First off, I haven't a clue about engine stuff what-so-ever (I'm only 17, haven't had much experience...yet).

When I go to start the car up and it hasn't been running recently(a few hours or overnight, basically anytime it's "cold"), it just cranks and cranks, I have to give it gas and keep cranking it to get it to start. I haven't really tried not giving it gas, it may or may not start without me giving it gas...I'll check next time I go to drive it. Once it starts, it runs fine, just smokes (blue/grey/whiteish smoke) quite a bit until it's warm. If it's warm it starts right up no problem.

I have no idea what's wrong with it, and I've been looking through some of the threads and they are pointing towards a Coolant Tempature Sensor as the hard starting problem(would this be the best place to start, how hard is it to replace ?).

I also read somewhere(another website) that oil tends to settle in the cylinders, which would cause smoking, is this true ? At first someone told me that could be it, the spark plugs having a hard time trying to ignite the oil, which would explain the smoke. I put new Spark Plugs (Bosch Platinum +4s), Air Filter and Oxygen Sensor in it, I also have a new Fuel Filter, but it appears to have been changed recently, and I took it off, and it's clean going in and coming out, so I decided to just wait on that. Would it help to change that ? I also am planning on getting new plug wires and maybe a new coil pack if it's not too expensive and see if that helps.

Also...I'm getting some Check Engine Lights...one is #22 for a Knock Sensor and the other is #35 for the EVAP Purge Valve according to the Chilton Manual. Would either of those have anything to do with my problem, and are they hard to replace or expensive ?
Could it be something like a bad Injector, or not firing on all cylinders ? Just random guess, being I don't know much about engines and the like.

If you need any more info, just ask and I'll try my best to find out if I don't already know.
Any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

kidatari · Post by **kidatari** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:02 pm

I'm not entirely sure what the problem is, but I can tell you that part of it is the Bosch Platinum 4s. Get rid of those ASAP, and swap in some NGKs.

Platinum 4s are the absolute worst spark plugs I've ever heard of. I have yet to see a car that runs well with them.

Project_Legacy · Post by **Project_Legacy** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:18 pm

ditto. coolant temp sensor would be a good place to start i believe. ive never done it before so i wouldnt know where it is, and how hard it is to replace. but yea if you just bought the car, a nice little tune up should be good for it.

Mulletbob · Post by **Mulletbob** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:32 pm

kidatari wrote:I'm not entirely sure what the problem is, but I can tell you that part of it is the Bosch Platinum 4s. Get rid of those ASAP, and swap in some NGKs.

Platinum 4s are the absolute worst spark plugs I've ever heard of. I have yet to see a car that runs well with them.

Alright...I'll do that...Any particular NGK plug I should use ?

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:34 pm

V-Coppers if you don't mind replacing them ever 10-12k miles.

Mulletbob · Post by **Mulletbob** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:22 am

Alright, I'll give them a try...Where can I get them, Napa ?

Any other ideas for what the problem might be, anyone ?

Mulletbob · Post by **Mulletbob** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 2:01 am

Could it be the ignition timing ? Is that something worth checking into, or is it a lost cause ?

Project_Legacy · Post by **Project_Legacy** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:48 am

have you tried the coolant temp sensor yet?

have you checked for spark, and gas?

Mulletbob · Post by **Mulletbob** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:52 pm

Ok, I just replaced the Fuel Filter and Coolant temp sensor yesterday, and nothing, still the same hard to start....any other ideas?

sammydafish · Post by **sammydafish** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:18 pm

did you replace the plugs? Check the battery, Subaru coil packs need a strong 10-11v min to fire, an aging battery may crank fine, but only produce 8-9v under cranking load, not alowing the coils to fire. Oddly enough I've had this issue 3 or 4 times on customers cars in as many months.

Timing can't be the issse, it's not adjustable. code #22, knock sensor is common. Pull the sensor and clean the corrosion that will inevitibly be on the block and the bolt. The sensor grounds though the block and can get a bad connection throwing the code. They also are known to crack, if yours is cracked, get a new one. Reset the codes. Check your vac lines to the evap canister and the VSV under the 1-2 intake runners, make sure it's hooked up.

After you've checked that, post back and let us know the results.

Mulletbob · Post by **Mulletbob** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:22 pm

Alright, thanks, My battery is from January of '04 so I might need a new one, and the cables have a little corrosion on them, so I was planning on making those my next stop, are Orbital Batteries worth the money ?

sammydafish · Post by **sammydafish** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:31 am

Mulletbob wrote:Alright, thanks, My battery is from January of '04 so I might need a new one, and the cables have a little corrosion on them, so I was planning on making those my next stop, are Orbital Batteries worth the money ?

unless it's low on water or dammaged the batery should be good, still, testing it is easy enough, use a volt meter across it and have a friend crank it. see what the voltage drops to. Something as simple as dirty or bad terminals could cause the same problem so clean them.

Most batteries last about 4 years, good ones last up to 6.

and put plugs in it

Mulletbob · Post by **Mulletbob** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:07 am

Alright, I changed the Battery Cables, and it didn't really help. I just talked to a friend of mine the other day who said that his Jeep is having the same hard starting problems...and his is linked to 2 leaking fuel injectors (they don't close after he shuts the engine off, and since there is still pressure in the fuel lines, it just drips gas into the cylinders)...could I have the same thing ? I have ran quite a bit of cleaner thru them since I got the car, but it hasn't really done anything. Just wondering if that's something I should look into, thanks.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:06 pm

Get rid of the platinum plugs. I've got single electrode Bosch Platinums in my scooby and I utterly hate them. Search around for other remarks on the platinums if you don't believe me.

As far as fuel injector cleaner, I've heard stories where too much can be counter productive. Try running premium for a little bit. That may also help.

Have you tested the battery like suggested? I know I had issues with cheap batteries (Energizer especially) in the past. Optima Yellow Top ftw!!!

How many miles are on the car? If you've been to the moon and back, that could definitely have an effect on what's going on.

And finally, have you had any check engine lights? Even if you haven't, check out the write up on how to check for codes. Bad sensors are bad. Knowing that there's no problems is good.

http://legacycentral.org/library/literature/codes.htm

Manarius · Post by **Manarius** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:07 am

kidatari wrote:I'm not entirely sure what the problem is, but I can tell you that part of it is the Bosch Platinum 4s. Get rid of those ASAP, and swap in some NGKs.

Platinum 4s are the absolute worst spark plugs I've ever heard of. I have yet to see a car that runs well with them.

Lies. My car runs fine with them and I get 0 smoke.

Battery doesn't make for smoking either. And under no circumstances should you give a fuel injected car gas when starting it. That's just asking for trouble.

dzx · Post by **dzx** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:07 am

It kinda sounds like if it smokes until it warms up, maybe you have a bad compression ring, in which case, once the car starts up it might be buring the little bit of oil that leaks by so you don't see it anymore. Does it smell a little when its warmed up?

Oh yeah, I'm sure you are smart enough to know this already but dont go sticking your face in the exhaust.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:43 am

I didn't even know they made platinum +4's for our cars. At least they didn't list them at Checker when I went.

Mulletbob · Post by **Mulletbob** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:45 pm

I got the plugs from Napa, so I hope they gave me the right plugs, if not, that could be what's wrong...the car has over 177k miles on it, and when I start it up, it blows a HUGE cloud of blue smoke, which would be fuel, right ? then as I drive it turns to a blue/whiteish, then once it's warm I don't see any (in the rearview as I'm driving, never really got out and looked)

but I love the car, and I just want to know what the heck is going on with it, it runs good, it just doesn't start very well if it sits for very long, but like I said before, it starts right up if I shut it off (if it's the fuel injectors, then I'm guessing that would be before they had time to drip fuel all over the place ?)

But the ignition timing isn't adjustable, could it be a timing belt, if it's missing teeth or something ? and I'm going to test the battery today and let you know what turns up with that, thanks.

scuzzy · Post by **scuzzy** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:11 pm

Mulletbob wrote:I got the plugs from Napa, so I hope they gave me the right plugs, if not, that could be what's wrong...the car has over 177k miles on it, and when I start it up, it blows a HUGE cloud of blue smoke, which would be fuel, right ? then as I drive it turns to a blue/whiteish, then once it's warm I don't see any (in the rearview as I'm driving, never really got out and looked)

but I love the car, and I just want to know what the heck is going on with it, it runs good, it just doesn't start very well if it sits for very long, but like I said before, it starts right up if I shut it off (if it's the fuel injectors, then I'm guessing that would be before they had time to drip fuel all over the place ?)

But the ignition timing isn't adjustable, could it be a timing belt, if it's missing teeth or something ? and I'm going to test the battery today and let you know what turns up with that, thanks.

that's oil.

check rings, ringlands, valve stems, do a compression check with the engine warm, and do the 'wet test' whereby you add oil to a cylinder after the first compression check to see if the compression gets better.

if it does by a significant ammount, the bottom end is leaking oil into the chamber. If it doesn't it's the top end/valve train

compression check though. do it.

scuzzy · Post by **scuzzy** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:13 pm

Oh, here's some tips for 'smoke'.

Oil on a cold startup or slightly warm is blue/gray fading to white - just like yours - on a hot startup it can be just white.

coolant is white (regardless of engine temp) - so you can confuse this with oil when the engine is hot, you should be able to smell the difference though.

fuel is black - you'll only get this when you're running really rich.

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Hard Starting and Smoking

Hard Starting and Smoking

Coolant Temp Sensor