More Bio fuel crap

[Legacy777]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1208131 ... .html.html

[93forestpearl]

Not once in the article is crude oil prices mentioned as a contributor to higher food prices. Everyone just wants to point fingers at the US all day. Hmmmmm. Food takes fuel to produce. Maybe, just maybe higher crude oil prices could maybe raise food prices?

[evolutionmovement]

Those are smaller contributors than our agricultural policy. We heavily subsidize industrial farms to overgrow soy & corn that is dumped on the world market (as well as being used as cheap cattle feed), making it too expensive for developing nations to grow their own staple crops and make any profit, so their infrastructure is not there, though they may have to change that now, there is going to be a lot of suffering before farmers can be trained on how to grow, the equipment can be bought, etc. (that's a best-case scenario as many of these farmers grow much higher profit crops, like opium (war on drugs, what?) and I wouldn't think they'd bother to change. Even if the alternative wasn't illicit drugs, there just isn't much clean land ready to be used in many places). The world has become dependent on our cheap food, and this ethanol BS doesn't make it any better. Another reason I want New England to secede. I suppose the bright side is the reduction of the population burden that's the cause of this mess to begin with. I wonder what human tastes like...

I want bio-diesel made from vertical algae farms (projected 100k gallons/acre/yr as opposed to either 30 or 50 gallons/acre/yr. of ethanol from corn or soy).

[SubaruNation]

ya but we're americans, we dont think intelligently...

[James614]

I resent that! Americans are think very intelligently.

[SubaruNation]

I resent that! Americans are think very intelligently.

ya?

[dwreck30]

I resent that! Americans are think very intelligently.

ya?

HAHA!!!

[Legacy777]

I was talking with my mom last night. She made a comment about her fiance complaining about the high gas prices and that we'll see $4-5 gas. She wasn't so sure that was going to happen, but I told her, I highly suspect we'll see those prices.....it's supply and demand. Not only is our demand for oil increasing, developing countries like china & india are wanting more oil....so prices are going to go up.

I don't see any drastic changes in how the government will handle things. The corn-based ethanol BS is a complete mess, and personally, I think gas prices would decrease if we stopped putting ethanol in it. But that's just me. However we still have the supply & demand issue to deal with. So unless we tap into new reserves on native land.....prices will still rise.

A breakthrough in new technology is about the only way I see things to really improve. Conservation would be the logical step until that occurs, but in reality, it's just not going to work. Americans have become so gluttonized with their independance/driving/etc, that they don't want to give it up.....plus there's little to no infrastructure to support mass transit.

It's said that we're at the verge of a recession....which in certain markets/areas I'd say we are. But if gas prices continue to rise, the higher costs will hurt the lower to middle class families the most. They will still need to get from point a to b. But what they won't do is spend extra money on things they once purchased. So the economy gets worse, and we dive deeper into a recession. It's a downward spiral that will happen to some extent. It may occur slowly, or it could happen pretty rapidly.

I think there's some uncertainty with the change in president....as to who will win....and what changes will occur....if any...and will they really help.

Anywho....I'm rambling very pessimistically about doom and gloom. But I do feel people get themselves into their own mess and living way beyond their means.....

[93forestpearl]

The algae farm idea sounds promising.

[Richard]

Put the food in my tummy, not in my tank.

[evolutionmovement]

Exactly. It makes no sense at all. A better additive than lead was, but that's about all ethanol is good for in gasoline. People do eat the algae to a small degree (in health food stuff), but the much higher yield capabilities, lack of strain on the environment (with a closed water process, they can thrive in a desert since all they need is sun), definitely make it a real possibility.

And I just took down the pool in the back yard. Dammit, I never saw the green growth as the blessing it was. And here I was spending hundreds on killing the stuff.

[dzx]

I really hope Obama or Clinton wins. Otherwise i might consider moving out of the US. I think i saw something on the algae farm in popular science a while back.

[evolutionmovement]

The idea's been around for a while, but a guy just recently figured out how to grow algae in plastic packets strung together and hanging on a moving rig that assures all the algae gets enough sun.

[SubaruNation]

i was stumbling (stumbleupon lol) and i found a site about a self contained machine-thing that either makes hydrogen or runs on hydrogen i can't remember...
either way the point was that they were going to have it in use in the car industry in the next 4 years to make hydrogen engines more efficient.

if my HD wasn't destroyed (by me lol) i would know what it was... hmm

i'll find tha page again, it was pretty cool

[Richard]

I really hope Obama or Clinton wins. Otherwise i might consider moving out of the US. I think i saw something on the algae farm in popular science a while back.

Do you actually know McCain's position on the environment? Or do you ASSume something because he has an (R) next to his name?


BTW - Many people have said "I'll move blah blah blah if an election doesn't go my way", but the numbers in the end never add up.


On a better note, has anyone heard of the algae that can grow in crude oil? That has to be some wicked stuff!!!

[SubaruNation]

lol yeah we're screwed no matter what.

and here's that hydrogen site:

http://www.stumbleupon.com/demo/#url=ht ... ic-motors/

[evolutionmovement]

There's algae that grows in diesel (ask a sailboat owner) and microbes that eat oil, so I wouldn't doubt there's algae that grows in crude.

[Richard]

Oil as engine oil?

[evolutionmovement]

Spilled oil - whichever kind they can use it on. I imagine spills could be either one depending on whether it's coming or going to a refinery so I don't really know. I haven't researched it beyond reading it in news articles and saying, "pretty cool," and moving on.

[Legacy777]

Yeah, I recently saw something on modern marvels about the algea. It was one about corn I believe.

[SubaruNation]

and here...
check this out
http://www.stumbleupon.com/demo/#url=ht ... ic-motors/

[Richard]

I am beginning to believe that diverting our crops and farmland from food production to fuel production while poor people are starving is immoral. Anyone with me?

[Aerotech]

I am beginning to believe that diverting our crops and farmland from food production to fuel production while poor people are starving is immoral. Anyone with me?

OK, good point. But is it any more immoral than turning places that have oil reserves into toxic waste dumps, then transporting the oil on ships that spill the shit all over the world, then burning it, releasing carbon that has been locked up for millions of years?
Bio-fuels at least absorb carbon from the environment, nullifying the impact of burning it, for the most part. I also believe it's one of the few short-term actions that will start to wean this country off the Arab teat. Truly efficient vehicles are available now, and *fully electric/fuel cell/insert pipe dream here* vehicles are in the forseeable future. But not everyone can afford a new car. What are you going to run your old Subaru on when gas hits $8/gal, sometime next winter?
Does anyone here utilize air travel? Guess what... prices are gonna go up, and this time, it's going to stick. There's no choice; airlines operate on incredibly thin profit margins, and the oil prices are wiping them out. Continental lost $85 million this first quarter. The days of $59 fares are over. And unless someone can come up with a bio-diesel derivative that stays viable at 40,000 ft & -50 deg.F, fares are going to go up in lock-step with oil prices, if the airline wishes to stay in business...this has not been the case so far, and now we are seeing the results, 4 companies shut down, and a merger of giants Delta and Northwest. More to follow, I'm sure, and I'll probably be out on the street (AGAIN!!).
*Whew...* sorry, but as someone watching my (poorly) chosen industry get repeatedly gang-banged by OPEC and Wall Street, I tend to support any measures that will allow energy independence, or at least steps in that direction. /[rant]

[evolutionmovement]

Corn is far from being carbon neutral.

Jets need to go. Aviation went to suck when those characterless polluters came on line.

[Richard]

How is ethanol going to lead us to energy independence?

There isn't enough farmland in existance to switch us over from oil to ethanol, so the best it could ever be is a drop in the bucket.

Ethanol takes a considerable amount of energy to produce, much more than it takes to refine even oil.

Ethanol is actually MORE EXPENSIVE than gasoline per gallon.

Ethanol has less energy per gallon compared to gasoline.

The only way ethanol can even stay on the market is through it's stupid mandates and heavy subsidation by people like you and me (actually the federal govt., but we're paying their bills). So we're really paying twice for it.

Ethanol effectively pollutes more than having a straight petrol setup, because not only does it take more energy to produce the corn, harvest the corn, transport the corn, convert the corn, has less energy per gallon (making you burn more to go as far as petrol would take you), it can't be piped underground so it has to be transported in relatively tiny vessels called tanker trucks, which also burn petrol.

Oh, and if Ethanol isn't one of the reasons the world's food prices have skyrocketed recently, then the whole concept of supply and demand is a farce, which it isn't.

Ethanol, like most of government's quick fixes, actually turns out not to be the right answer. It's what happens when short-sighted, self-serving politicians and a sheepishly uninformed public catch onto an idea that makes us feel soooo good that we latch onto it like a religion and fail to see it objectively for it's negatives and positives. Like many of government's fixes, the idea is noble but the actuality of the situation proves that's it's unviable.

And for the relatively few oil spills that result from accidents, it is still much easier to clean them up than to deal with worldwide famine this ethanol is setting us up for.

How about we go for the easy oil on our own land and coast? Experts say that there's more than enough out there, but are always stymied by those few clinging to boutique ideals.

Energy independence will only occur when we are able to use our own resources to satisfy our needs. Plowing over 90% of the US to produce corn to make into fuel is not a viable answer.

And what's the point of having cheap fuel when there's no food to make us run?