Guess who's the proud owner of a 92 awd 4eat Legacy?

[tris91ricer]

Yup, me. Ok, now, so this thread doesn't get relocated, i'll put it on point:
Gonna do an engine swap.
The 92 engine has 186k, and no run. dont' know what's wrong with it --they (original owners) think it's either got run out of oil, or has a broken T-Belt. Either way, i'm putting in my 91 EJ22 with only 140k on it. (wise choice?)
The auto tranny is staying in it, since i am tired of shifting, and i hear it might be on its way out. We'll get to that after the swap.

Meanwhile, what exactly will i need for the swap? I have a full-service shop, possibly 3 sets of hands, and an engine lift, as well as a cherry picker(?-- the thing that lifts the car overhead)
So far, my list of parts includes:

STi Engine/Tranny mounts (do they make the tranny mount for an awd auto?) Pitch stop rod? (looked ok when i inspected it)
Ground-mod Kit (Home Depot Version?)
Timing Belt/water pump
New Plugs/wires (NGK V-Power of course)
radiator and hoses?
AT cooler?
Lightweight Crank pulley?

anything else you folks think would be necessary? The engines are the exact same, the only difference between the cars is one year and awd, as my 91 (the engine donor) is fwd.
I've also heard that this can be done in just a weekend --this true? like, if i devoted a saturday/sunday to it, it could be done? (with help, of course.) Is it really that hard? If i just disconnect everything and put it back in the same places, we're ok, right? Will i run into trouble with aftermarket cruise control and lack of ABS?
Which ECU should i use?

Got all the service records, every tire replacement to every oil/lube/filter --including pcv check, plus all the insurance and registrations from puyallup to multnomah county, even colorado!

anything else I'm forgetting? Of course, when i do the actual swap, (gonna need a week or two to gather parts) I will take pics and share with you all, including before/after, as well as some inbetweens and maybe some candids, as i'm pretty photogenic

Thanks all, and wish me luck!

[douglas vincent]

Maybe I am misreading this, but why are you putting a non-running engine into your car?

[vrg3]

Douglas - I think he's swapping the running engine from his 91 FWD 5MT into the new 92 AWD 4EAT.

Tristan - I don't know if you can get a hardened 4EAT mount... but if you can't, you might consider just getting a brand new 4EAT mount since it'll be way better than the 12-year/186-thousand-mile old one.

The swap can indeed be done in a weekend. It's fairly easy, especially if you're swapping the entire engine over (i.e. not just the block or something). You'll need to rent an engine crane.

You will, however, need to swap the wiring harness from the 92 engine onto the 91 engine (I don't think they're compatible). I don't know if you can remove the harness without removing the intake manifold.

The primary differences in the engine management systems of your two cars are the MAF sensor and the IAC valve. There also may be some functional difference in the injectors (it's unclear; they should flow similarly but Josh has 92-style injectors on his 90 and says he's noticed a drop in fuel economy since he installed them). An added complication, though, is that the ECU in your 91 was never meant to work with an automatic transmission.

So, if I were you, I would use the 92 IAC valve, MAF sensor, injectors, and fuel rails, and keep the 92 ECU in the car. You could probably get away with keeping the 91 fuel rails and injectors, but since you have the opportunity you may as well use the 92 ones.

ABS and cruise shouldn't have anything to do with this swap as far as I can see.

[vrg3]

Oh yeah, another thing -- air conditioning.

If you don't want to have to discharge, evacuate, and recharge the air conditioning system, you'll want to unbolt the compressor from the 92 engine and move it over out of the way, and then bolt it back to the 91 engine. You may need to mix mounting hardware, but I'm sure you can figure it out.

If you don't mind discharging, evacuating, and recharging, and if both engines have Calsonic compressors, you can just keep the compressor mounted to the engine and use the 91 compressor with the 92 system. If they're both Zexel or Diesel Kiki, you might or might not be able to -- I don't know if a 90-91 Zexel compressor is directly compatible with a 92-94 Zexel compressor.

[professor]

Sure seems a lot easier to try to fix the engine in place...it should take no more that a few hours to find out what is really wrong, and possibly only a few to fix it if the timing belt is the culprit. If you had a truly low mileage engine I might change my mind, but with good maintenance the 186k engine could be better than the 140k engine.

The most it will cost you is a timing belt, I assue the engine turns over but no compression ? Hell if you replace the timing belt and still no compression you know you have junk but you can recover the belt and have spent very little.

[tris91ricer]

Well, I've given it a good look over, and i'll have to talk to my friend about what exactly went wrong when it quit on him (he knows next to nothing about cars) but they assumed he ran it out of oil, somehow breaking the (push?)rod. Later, when i bought it, his dad surmised that it could have even been a broken timing belt. They're not sure..if it is, well, we'll check it out.
AFAIK, it won't turn over, let alone unlock the steering wheel -- anyone know a trick for this? I know right off the bat that the battery cable stuff for the positive lead is all FUBAR'd but still connects.. i just can't get the key to turn, let alone turn the engine over..

Vikash: Can i keep my 91 MAF? it's metal as opposed to the plastic 92 version. metal seems more solid. (duh:?)
I'm not sure where the IAC is exactly, but today i'm going to DL the FSMs and any documentation josh has for us..
Oh, and my problem with ABS and cruise was that the 92 does not have ABS, and has a funky aftermarket cruise that was installed at the dealership at time of delivery, but it's not the subaru kind...i'll worry 'bout that later, too. How difficult is it to bring my 91 ABS stuff over? I wanted the ABS for insurance..
JECS(?) is what is on the passenger side strut tower sensor mounts.. what is that exactly? i thought that was all for turbo stuff? (no turbo) It's some kind of sensor, i'd guess, perhaps for the airbag? or the aftermarket cruise?

I'm signing up at hardy's gallery here, so i'll get you all some pics, soon, k?
Thanks again, and I look forward to actually posting something useful around here, once i get this project in the works!

-=tris

[vrg3]

The key won't turn in the ignition switch? Are you sure it's the right key? That's not as dumb a question as it sounds -- I've owned a Legacy that had a different key for the ignition than for the doors, presumably because the ignition switch had been replaced sometime in the past.

I don't think you can keep the aluminum MAF sensor. It only works with ECUs for turbos or for 90-91 5MTs. Don't worry about it, though... Subaru's used the plastic design for a long time, and it should hold up fine.

The cruise control thing shouldn't matter at all. It should work fine with the 91's engine.

In principle it's possible the swap the ABS system over, but I wouldn't try if I were you. You'd have to remove all the hard lines, the proportioning valve, and the master cylinder, and replace them with the ABS versions. You'd need to install the ABS computer (which you'd want to source from a 90-92 4WD 4EAT car; your 91's is meant for FWD). You'd need to remove all the hubs and install the ABS tone rings on them, or swap the hubs entirely over (I'm not sure exactly how involved either job is, but it's definitely not easy). You'd have to install the wheel speed sensors in the hubs. You'd have to install the hydraulic control unit behind the passenger side headlight. And then you'd have to wire the whole thing together. And make absolutely no mistakes anywhere in the process, since even seemingly small errors could be catastrophic.

I'm not sure such an ABS swap would even convince your insurance company to give you a discount; I believe they can tell from the VIN whether or not the car came from the factory with ABS. While I don't think it's illegal for you to retrofit your own car with ABS, it certainly would be questionable in terms of safety.

JECS is Japan Engine Control Systems... I think you're looking at the 4EAT dropping resistor. It's a white ceramic thing with a silver-colored metal cage around it? And has a 2-pin harness connector?

[professor]

I've seen a few cases where it is difficult to get the steering to unlock after a car has been towed. Similar to how the unlock is tough if the car is parked with the left wheel jammed against the curb, only in this case, the wheels have been pushed / pulled and possibly dragged all over the place during the tow, which can jack the steering rack.

Wrestle with it

The dude should know if he ran out of oil, there should have been a number of bright red idiot lights lit for at least a little while, usually it overheats as well right before giving up the ghost. The timing belt break would likely have given no warning.

[tris91ricer]

Vikash: I'm sure its the right key, but I'm going to have a look at it anyway later..
The steering wheel is in that securitylock mode where you turn it so far and it locks until the key is in the ignition and turned.. I'll wrestle with it then.
The JECS thing IS a two pin harness, (that's the term i was looking for, thanks) but it's not white ceramic or caged. Black pastic. I'll take pics and post soon.. gotta see where i have to have it towed, first. When they towed it off the street after it quit, the just put rope on the front hitch (that thing under the bumper) and after placing it in "manual", (there's some 'manual' button on the shifter that they say puts it into 2wd mode..) they towed it on all four wheels with their ford ranger. Could this have hurt anything?
And are the Timing Belts for 91 and 92 the same? I know mine needs a belt anyhow, but if all that's wrong with the 92 is a timing belt, well then.. we might have to cut the project short.. but we'll see, come engine weekend.

For now, I'm off to talk to Myles at RaceComp, and scout some new brake pads --things it needs anway. Eh, perhaps I'll even call/email Kelly.

-=tristan

[ultrasonic]

When they towed it off the street after it quit, the just put rope on the front hitch (that thing under the bumper) and after placing it in "manual", (there's some 'manual' button on the shifter that they say puts it into 2wd mode..) they towed it on all four wheels with their ford ranger. Could this have hurt anything?

I hope you mean that they put it in NEUTRAL to tow it. MANUAL is a mode that allows you to shift the 4EAT in a somewhat manual fashion.

So the possibility is that they towed it with all four wheels on the ground and rolling, with the automatic transmission in a forward drive mode.

[tris91ricer]

So the possibility is that they towed it with all four wheels on the ground and rolling, with the automatic transmission in a forward drive mode.

Is that a bad thing then? as long as all four wheels were on the ground and rolling, i'd think it'd be ok.. i guess we'll know when i test out the transmission..
Ok, so my friend said there were no warning lights when it 'died', it just all of the sudden lost power and according to him, went "klunk, klunk, klunk" and quit. Does that sound like a timing belt breaking? or the valves stopping themselves? is this necessarily a bad thing? I was told that in order to check for a broken belt, i should remove the distributor cap(??), and watch to see if the rotor is turning..(?) do we have distrinbutor caps? I really should just unhook all the stuff above the timing belt cover anyway, since it's all around easier..
oi vey,
-=tristan

[tris91ricer]

ok, well, after taking a day off work and thoroughly playing with the thing, I've been told that one of the connecting rods is broken/loose.
The car will start, idle, and run a bit, but with very little power.. while its running/idling, there is a very loud knocking --(*KNOCK*KNOCK*KNOCK*) coming from the engine, somewhere near the timing belt viewing area.. at first i thought it was the timing belt, but.. the belt still has moisture to it.. very well maintained.. There is some oil spillage around the engine (i don't know what the part is called) near where the plugs and injectors are, both sides.. its been kinda baked on.. but noticeable.

What could cause a broken connecting rod? Push Rod?

Is it worth the time and effort to undo everything and put my working engine in there, or is it easier to replace the rod? Kinda wish i had the $crilla for a nice EJ20 or something.. that would be fun. However, i'm in the poverlous here and now .. so I'm faced with some choices... what say you?

-=tristan


btw,
i pushed, pulled, and did everything i could think of to make the thing move --engine and tranny mts are super. (stock, perhaps..)

[tris91ricer]

did i do something to get ignored? i'm starting to pull pieces this week now, in prep for an engine swap.. i've made my list!
who's gonna stop me? anyone? anyone? anyone?

-=tris

[tris91ricer]

OK, well, I've been taking the new car apart, in preparation for the engine swap..
I learned a few things, what to avoid, and to definitely have me a good ratchet set, preferrably craftsman, as i'm off to lifetime warranty a 14mm socket that cracked somewhere along the way... ouch. My hands are all cut up, callused, and i have grease so deep it'll still be here next week, (i know, that's gross.) but DAMN if i don't feel good, knowing i'm personally putting together my next car!

So my quick update: Tomorrow, i'll be shopping for more line, and a place to recharge my A/C (:oops:) , and replace all my fluids, etc... I'm so excited!

oh, and i'll be taking photos as the swap takes place. I'll post them here to let you all see everything.

wish me luck, engine swap commences friday morning!

thanks ,

[douglas vincent]

Remember this thread!

http://www.bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?t=18218

Too bad you arent in portland. I need to do an engine pull and rebuild next week on my wifes legacy since her clutch went out.

[vrg3]

Cool....

As for the A/C, if you're willing to do a little work you may want to get the necessary equipment and do it yourself. You can buy a cheap manifold gauge set for like $50-$70 if you watch on eBay and you can make a vacuum pump out of two used refrigerator compressors and a few fittings. The cost is likely to be close to the cost of properly servicing your A/C once or twice anyway.

I'm eager to see the photos... They should be useful as references in the future and stuff too.

Oh, and just to let everyone know and open it up for public discussion -- Tristan and I discussed it over PM, but we think the best way to go in terms of management would be to swap the 92 engine's complete intake manifold (with harness, IAC valve, fuel rails, and injectors) onto the 91 engine.