Negotiable commodity...

[evolutionmovement]

HArdy - I think commision was established as a way of 'encouraging' sales people to sell as much as possible. A flat rate, at least according to some thinking, would lead to laziness on the part of the sales people as they get paid the same wither way. Personally, I think commission should be les, but a bonus to the salary ... sort of an inverse of what waiters get.

And jewelry as well as lots of other items wouldn't sell if people had the dealer invoice in front of them. I strongly agree they shot themselves in the foot by allowing that.

Steve

[scottzg]

This is a separate thought, so i'm sticking it in a different reply.

There is a mind-boggling amount of information that one needs in order to make an intelligent purchase of ANYTHING. I have been reading about car stuff recreationally for ~6 years now, and i am pretty sure i don't have a clue what the best thing on the market is.

People would come to me to buy a canoe and I would be expected to be able to tell them which one is the best. There is no best, there's different designs that have different costs and suit different applications. People assume that if it costs more, it's better (this is NOT TRUE!) when really some designs cost more but are not appropriate for the buyer; less value to them.

On the other hand, there are other products that are made to do set tasks, and the various models can be compared to one another based on how they complete them. E.g. hard disks. The hard disk that is the fastest and holds the most for the least money is the best, right? Maybe, but I fear that everyone trying to get the cheapest thing that can do the job is eventually going to stab us in the back. Manufacturers will be forced to make junk in order to keep up with consumer demand. I've got a 2.5gb disk on my backup computer that is a failed (for contamination) test drive that has been running for 5 years. In that time i've replaced 4 newer drives in my main computer. I'm an idiot who buys the cheapest one (although i expect it to fail ) Customers not considering reliability has lead to reliably unreliable product.

In one case, there is no best, just different designs for different uses, and in the other, where the needs are defined, manufacturers will be forced to make junk for short term profit while ruining their reputation.

[evolutionmovement]

That's exactly why I wish I could simultaneously blow up every Wal Mart there is. Electronics are trash nowadays.

And you're definitely right about applications for customer - that's something a salesperson is important for. Example similar to yours: I bought a polyethylene touring kayak which at 13'2" just fits between my wall supports, but is perfect for what I do - estuary, mild ocean, and river/lake use. It's relatively maneuverable, tracks well, is fairly light, cheap, and 0 maintenance. Fiberglass would be lighter, but harder to fix, more expensive and unnecessary for me. Wood is beautiful but also not for me. A white water kayak would be specialized for something I don't do as well as a long sea kayak. I never would have picked the perfect one for me were it not for the well-informed salesman at New England Small Craft.

It's the same with bicycles - I got the base model Specialized Allez, because I'd barely notice the difference in the higher end models and so the price increase, for me, was unjustified. The sales people I've dealt with are the first to point that out. In general I've found them to want you to have what fits you best so you'll be happy with the product than just to push you into the most expensive thing there. I don't know about cars as much as I always buy old shit private sale, but I'm sure there are plenty that fall into the catagory I just described.

Steve

[BAC5.2]

I didn't choose for it to be a commission based system. People deserve fair compensation. It just so happens that the automotive industry is based on commission. There is reasoning behind it. It IS harder to sell a more expensive vehicle, and I guess commission is a sort of sliding-scale of bonus which also just happens to be your salary. You get back what you put in, or so they say.

You pay for services, right? Selling you a car is a service. You can't do it on your own, you do need someone to take the reins and guide you through the process. You worked at the J-Team, so I know you performed services. Now, you didn't refine the oil. You didn't make the containers. You unscrew a plug, change a filter, and fill er up. Does that justify a $30 price tag for 20 minutes of work? It is less work changing oil, than it is for a salesman to get a car ready for delivery. Aside from the paperwork, which is tedious, redundant, and time consuming, we make sure everything goes smoothly. I've washed a car for delivery myself because the wash crew left for the night. It was 1am, and it was 2 weeks ago. I was freezing my ass off, but I did what had to be done to get the customer happy. For all that, I didn't make shit on the sale.

Service. It's all about service. People seem to think it's worth 30 bucks to change their oil, but a car and the service provided by the dealership isn't worth jack shit when buying a car. They can't do either themselves, but for some reason the more difficult of the tasks deserves less recognition and less reimbursement.

It is ALL the fault of dealerships though, they set the sales staff up for failure with the internet and the decision to publish invoice prices, then try to inflate their ego's with hopes of big bucks. Like scott says, someone always loses.

If the cars were a flat rate, it would be a lot easier. There should be just one price on the window, and that's it. That's the bottom line, no negotiations.

[scottzg]

Normal markup for product is 50%. The dealership norm is 10%.

Scott - MSRP seemed to be ~ 10% over Invoice for Nissan.

[BAC5.2]

Doug - I meant the idea of reimbursement for your time.

Steve and Scott - That's my real job, where my heart is. I'm an outfitter for a local company. I know a bit about boats, a bit about outerwear, a bit about tents. I know bikes. That's my thing, that's why I make more money than everyone else (head mechanic).

What both you and Steve said is absolutely, 100% right. Value to the customer is important. When it comes to boats, bikes, outerwear in general. If Steve came to me with his needs in a bike, I probably would have set him up similar to how he was set up. I would have given him the pro's and cons of both the higher level, and the lower trim level, and open him up to other models of similar features.

Oh, and more expensive isn't always better is absolutely and entirely correct! I love the bang-for-buck values. I always get so excited when something innexpensive works above and beyond my expectations.

[BAC5.2]

Normal markup for product is 50%. The dealership norm is 10%.

Scott - MSRP seemed to be ~ 10% over Invoice for Nissan.

OOOHHH, I thought you were saying that WASN'T true, lol. My bad.

[evolutionmovement]

I think car sales attracts a largely unsavory type due to the high stress/unlikely profit/bad reputation and subsequently high turn over that further reinforces the impression. Publishing dealer invoice only further chisels it in stone. In amy other industry I've dealt with, good sales people are not the exception like they are in car sales. Not only that, but in other industries there are people making damn good money for many years doing it. Real Estate is a little more on the line towards car sales due to the easy licensing I think, but there are still very good ones. When I used to deal with salesmen for manufacturing supplies, machines, etc. I found them to be extremely knowledgeable, helpful, truthful, and intelligent. Even the hot chicks who used their looks to make sales weren't too bad (though they were nowhere near the older dudes who worked their asses off and knew a shit load more because they have to).

Steve

[LaureltheQueen]

I work at a dealership that sounds much like the one that Phil works at. We have many salespeople, and an internet sales manager. The salespeople are all very nice, and usually don't have problems with the customer(we're the #1 volume subaru dealership in the nation), and then there's our internet sales manager. He's the man. He'll give you an incredibly low price on a car, and you either take it or leave it. He gives you no customer service whatsoever. Pretty much the idea behind it is, you go test drive the car and do research at another dealer, then call Joe. You don't test drive with him, or ask him questions about the car, except perhaps colors, if you want a certain color, we either order it, or you take another combination. He was telling me about how he hung up on someone last week because they were asking him which was bigger, the forester or the outback. After the sale is completed, he'll be more than willing to go on a drive with you, explain features and whatnot of the car to you, but only after that check is signed. Art and My father both went through him for their subarus, and even the salesmen say that you'd be a fool not to go to Joe.



You have to remember, yes, people are petty, and yes they pay more for the attention and time they get, but they want to part with their money nearly as much as you want to get it.

[THAWA]

He was telling me about how he hung up on someone last week because they were asking him which was bigger, the forester or the outback.

Thats awesome!

[BAC5.2]

If all sales went like they do with Joe, then I'd have no problem with people paying Invoice. I'd actually prefer that.

But then again, I don't sell cars anymore. I got sick of that shit PDQ. Met a lot of cool people though, and I could sell a frog to a fly, but it just wasn't for me. I don't like screwing people. I like getting fairly compensated, but not screwing people.

Back to my old job, where I will probably make more money

[tris91ricer]

Way cool, Phil! Does that mean you're working at the bike shop again?

[azn2nr]

k, i didnt read the entire threadbut my 2 cents are if the msrp is 16k and the delear invoice is 14.5k and theyre asking 26k.

that happened to me a few years back when looking at a new car. the delear mentality was similar to phills in that he seemed to think that a car is non negotible. i of course thought this was bullshit, left and never went back.

[BAC5.2]

If MSRP is 16k, and they were asking $26k, that's ridiculous.

I have, and never would have, marked a car up. That's foolish and insulting to a customer IMO.

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask a customer to pay for the car (MSRP). Car sales is a business, just like any other.

[azn2nr]

yeah. if the i walked into the delear and he was willing to sell the car for msrp i probaly would have bought it. but not only would he not let us buy it unless he got 26k but he wouldnt even let us (my fater and i)drive it.

[BAC5.2]

That's just fucked up and irrational then.