Blown headgasket? Cracked block? waterpump? - LONG

boostjunkie · Post by **boostjunkie** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 5:18 pm

Well, I finally got the crazy a/f problem solved, I think. But, like clockwork, something else on the car has to fail as soon as I fix a problem

I was driving home last night and decided to open her up a little before getting to my house. Ran it hard and then slowed down into my complex. As soon as I pulled into the lot the car started smoking A LOT!!

Opened the hood and saw coolant thrown out at the reservoir and coolant overflow. Overflow tank was full. I let the car idle and everything seems fine. Temp gauge read normal. Finally shut the engine down and checked the reservoir when cooled down. Coolant was to the top. Overflow tank was still full.

This morning I get into the car to drive and notice there's not a lot of heat. It would cycle on and then off and I noticed that the engine would smoke a little while I was stuck in traffic. Coolant burning off, I presume. Heat was fine while I was moving. Still no change from the normal temp readings.

Parked in the garage and let it sit till cold. Checked the overflow . . . still full. Emptied out coolant until the "max" mark. Checked the reservoir . . . empty!!

Filled up the reservoir and started the car up. Same thing as before. On and off heat.

I'm going to try and burp the radiator but what else should I be looking for? I was told that a headgasket problem would be noticeable through the coolant overflow tank (that's where I saw bubbles when my 2.5GT headgaskets blew) and that vaccum readings would be above -.60 at idle. I'm showing -.65.

One more thing. I've also been noticing that the engine would squeel randomly when accelerating from a stop, until I hit 3000rpm and change gears. I tightened the accessory belts and didn't notice too much of a difference. However, I was told that the underdrive pullies make squeeling noises.

Does the waterpump make squeeling noises when it's dead/dying?

Any other ideas?

Post by **Legacy777** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 5:26 pm

yeah it's very possible water pump can make squealing noises.

Something definitely is not right......that's for sure.

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 5:29 pm

When you say the overflow tank was "full," you mean it was way past the MAX mark?

Sounds like coolant was boiling out of the engine/filler tank into the overflow tank... like you're getting overheating but not in the area where the temperature sender is. It would be interesting to know what the ECU thought the temperature was. (Man, everybody should have a Select Monitor!)

Oil and coolant mix when you have a blown head gasket, right? So if you change your oil and find chocolate milk in there, that would be a bad sign. A shop could also test your coolant for hydrocarbons (if you can actually keep some in there long enough for the mixing to happen).

On turbos the only place to get bubbles to escape from is the filler tank; the "burp screw" area actually has a hose going to the tank.

Was the smoking coming from the engine bay or the tailpipe?

boostjunkie · Post by **boostjunkie** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 5:36 pm

vrg3 wrote:When you say the overflow tank was "full," you mean it was way past the MAX mark?

WAY past the max mark. To the brim.

vrg3 wrote:Oil and coolant mix when you have a blown head gasket, right? So if you change your oil and find chocolate milk in there, that would be a bad sign. A shop could also test your coolant for hydrocarbons (if you can actually keep some in there long enough for the mixing to happen).

I'll have to change my oil earlier than anticipated. GRRREAAAAAT.

vrg3 wrote:Was the smoking coming from the engine bay or the tailpipe?

The smoke was coming from the engine bay. Coolant escaped from the reservoir/pressure cap and was buring off on the hot engine.

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 5:39 pm

boostjunkie wrote:WAY past the max mark. To the brim.

Yeah, coolant was definitely boiling out of the filler tank and condensing in the overflow. You were probably pouring coolant out the overflow-for-the-overflow hose too.

I'll have to change my oil earlier than anticipated. GRRREAAAAAT.

Buy a Fumoto valve!

The smoke was coming from the engine bay. Coolant escaped from the reservoir/pressure cap and was buring off on the hot engine.

Ah, yeah... probably more boiling than burning...

This could just be a bad cap, maybe...

Though it puzzles me why you wouldn't see the gauge needle rise.

boostjunkie · Post by **boostjunkie** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 5:50 pm

I thought it was strange that the coolant pressure cap was leaking. If that particular piece is letting coolant out, is there a possibility it could be letting air in?

I'm just as clueless as you are with the lack of overheating. Is the temp gauge tied into the coolant temp sensor?

boostjunkie · Post by **boostjunkie** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 5:53 pm

If the pressure cap is letting coolant out, is there a possibility it could be letting air in? I'm as clueless as you are as to why I'm not seeing the needle pegged. Is the gauge hooked up to the coolant temp sensor? Could it be that the gauge doesn't read an overheat but the ecu does?

I'm still wondering whether that random squeeling is the water pump. It's rpm-dependent, correct? Might be the reason why I get the random "no heat" at idle if it's failing to move the water/coolant at that rpm. *shrug*

Post by **Legacy777** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:10 pm

there are two coolant temp sensors. The two wire one for the ECU and the one wire one for the temp gauge

Pics of both
http://www.main.experiencetherave.com:8 ... P_2477.JPG
http://www.main.experiencetherave.com:8 ... P_2505.JPG

yes, water pump is rpm dependant. It's connected to the timing belt. The temp gauge on the dash is not the best, it's hooked inline with a resistor so not to show any real fluctuations in temp. The ECU temp sensor is more sensitive and would show any variances.

Assuming you don't have a blown headgasket, I'd say it's either the water pump (most likely) and/or thermostat. I'd probably replace both. When's the last time either of those things have been replaced? How many miles are on the car?

morgie · Post by **morgie** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:11 pm

i've not read the topic, but first look at the cheap black-plastic reservoir, look closely at it and his plugs and hoses...

plugs are easy to break, the wall can crack, and hoses can fail (i had all of those 3 problems at once...

)

boostjunkie · Post by **boostjunkie** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:33 pm

Okay, started up the car yet again. Let it idle. Got heat but then I noticed that there was puddling underneath the car, exactly where the oil filter would be, but on the opposite side of the oil pan.

Is this where the waterpump is located? I heard the waterpump will start to leak when it needs replacing.

I'll have to get in touch with Adam again for confirmation, but I thought he changed the waterpump/timing belt. I could be wrong tho.

morgie · Post by **morgie** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:47 pm

Yup that's where it is.

the watherpump is in line with the A/C compressor (but lower, under the plastic covers)

boostjunkie · Post by **boostjunkie** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:56 pm

That's where I was seeing a small puddling. But then I drove it around a few hundred feet and idled it. No leaking.

How would a failing waterpump cause those problems above?

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:56 pm

Sounds like your waterpump. They can squeal when the seals go and coolant gets into the bearings. There's a weep hole that allows coollant to leak out when this happens as a show that something's wrong. Your water pump is located under the A/C compressor under the timing belt cover (where the lower hose to the radiator comes from).

You can also just look at the underneath of the oil cap and if you see white stuff it's a sign that there's coolant in the oil. You won't always see bubbles in the radiator with a head gasket problem, and with the radiator spitting coolant out, any oil in it may have come out with it (mine created a film on top of the coolant rather than mixing). You won't always see oil in coolant mixed in the radiator and the oil pan. Sometimes only one shows the signs.

But, good thing is, I'm blaming the water pump. I change mine with every belt change.

Steve

Brat4by4 · Post by **Brat4by4** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:08 pm

Yes, losing coolant on the inner circuit will mess with your head. I had a banjo bolt on the turbo loose and it would lose coolant. The inner circuit kept emptying (coolant resevoir tank), but the radiator would be fine. Had the same steaming problems when the coolant would leak onto the exhaust, but you couldn't see it until it would come out of the hoodscoop at rest. But my temperature kept pegging...

boostjunkie · Post by **boostjunkie** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:31 pm

Somehow my crazy gauge won't register overheating. ARRRGGGHHH!!

Post by **Legacy777** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:37 pm

quit driving the damn car.

You obviously have a problem, and IMO as well as others on the board, it's your water pump. No need to cause further damage by driving it with a failing water pump.

boostjunkie · Post by **boostjunkie** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:41 pm

I wish I could, but considering this is my only means of transportation to and from work, I'm kinda in a bind here. I made an appointment to have the waterpump changed on Sat, but I need to drive the damn thing home tonight and to and from work tomorrow.

Post by **Legacy777** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:43 pm

can you get a rental car for the day?

boostjunkie · Post by **boostjunkie** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:46 pm

Well, I'm gonna try to see if I can take off tomorrow, but that'll be a stretch. If not, then the rental car is a consideration.

Tis the season to be spending money on non-seasonal things, eh?

ciper · Post by **ciper** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:36 pm

"Somehow my crazy gauge won't register overheating"

Your coolant sensor is at a very high point in the system. If your getting on and off heat it means your coolant is VERY low. The sensor may not have coolant around it.

In fact I BET parts of your engine are overheating and causing damage. The more you drive it this way the more likely your headgasket is going to leak. You watch.

vrg3 · Post by **vrg3** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:42 pm

Let's all also note that the stock coolant temperature "gauge" isn't really much of a gauge. It really just tells you one of "warming up", "warmed up", "starting to get too hot", "too hot!", and even then it's rather vague.

An aftermarket coolant temperature gauge with the sender in a sensible location would be good.

boostjunkie · Post by **boostjunkie** » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:58 pm

Woah, lots of reprimands. That's okay, I probably deserve it.

At any rate, I setup an appointment to have the waterpump and timing belt changed tomorrow morning.

Ciper, I'm not arguing with you here, but I'm still baffled as to why the temp needle (and vrg3, I realize it's a very inaccurate measure of engine temp) doesn't fluctuate AT ALL from the normal operating temperature? If the coolant was so low that the sender wasn't immersed in coolant, wouldn't it not even register and stay closer to the "cold" area?

Is the coolant just boiling upto the level of the coolant temp sender when the engine reaches "operating temps?"

Post by **Legacy777** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:01 am

Let's just say this....that coolant temp gauge on your dash is a big piece of worthless shit!!

Basically, when it shows that temp is too high.....it's probably already even higher, and possibly causing damage. Don't trust it! I'd trust what the heater is telling me more then that stupid thing.

The reason you don't see it moving around to much is because the factory probably used a temp sensor with a very slow range of change. That or the circuit just doesn't respond to small temp increases/decreases, and takes a little while to accurate adjust for large ones.

boostjunkie · Post by **boostjunkie** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 3:19 am

Gotcha! Thanks for explaining that for me Legacy777.

Well, the car's in the shop. Luckily, I caught the guys before they went home for the night.

They're gonna pressure test the system and let me know if I need a new waterpump (which I know I need) or whatever. I'll let you guys know what they tell me tomorrow.

petridish38 · Post by **petridish38** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 8:05 pm

vrg3 wrote:Oil and coolant mix when you have a blown head gasket, right?

When my head gasket(s) started to go, there was no coolant in my oil, or vice-versa. The leak was small enough to push exhaust gases into the coolant under compression/combustion, but nothing else. While the car was running, I could see a small air bubble rising to the top of the reservoir every few seconds. The car would drive perfectly, no white smoke, very little coolant loss. Then one day, as luck would have it, I was on my way to have the coolant "sniffed" and it started to feel like it was running on 3 cylinders (lack of compression in one cyl from obvious leak in head gasket) so i turned around and started dismantling the engine.

As for the temp guage, I don't know what's happening with yours. If my engine isn't warmed up all the way and i rev it above 3,000, it will react pretty quickly and go back down to the "C" line. So i guess it reacts pretty quickly. It's been doing this since i got my AutoZone t-stat and i have since ordered a t-stat from subaruparts.com along with a gasket.

And yeah, if you're not getting any heat, there is probably air in your system (lets hope that is the water pump or radiator cap for your sake). and it is very possible to have a pocket of air around the temp sensor with overheating water just below and still read "normal". Just depends on how much air is in there.

Sorry for the book...Good Luck.....hope you don't have to go through what i did.

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Blown headgasket? Cracked block? waterpump? - LONG

Blown headgasket? Cracked block? waterpump? - LONG