Mini Cooper S. maybe Mazda 3 5-door?

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:41 pm

All this week I've been on 'vacation' from the marina upgrading a Cingular tower to coaxial (so cellphones can get cable ... and the Man can watch you) and it pays damn good. Plus shit loads of overtime and I even got paid 8+2 hours today even though I didn't work as there was a problem with the local f'n union. Hopefully the cut date can be pushed out, but I digress ...

So I need a car I can rely more upon and that gets better mileage and I'll be able to afford it IF this contract goes through. I was thinking of what I like other than the as yet out-of-reach Elise and somewhat duplicate new Legacy turbo wagon (the old one's going into restoration mode). The only thing I came up with was the Mini Cooper S. So I checked it out with the interest of actually owning it and I think it may be the one. So I'll do the very thing I always shit on - buying a new car, buying a car with fwd and a transverse engine, and European at that! Used prices aren't much less than new, the newer ones have (hopefully) had all the little gremlins sorted, and I can get a better rate on a new car loan. Most importantly, I can spec it how I want.

Anyone own one of these or have any opinions? I know it's not the most hard core looking car, but I don't need an H2-type compensator, plus if I can manage to get the black grille the 'Works' model has (without paying the rediculous price for the rest of the package) I think it would look OK. These things start cheaper than I thought, too.

Steve

scottzg · Post by **scottzg** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:15 am

mini's pwn autox.

rallysam · Post by **rallysam** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:29 am

No way! Here's just an example of the Cooper compared against an RS to show you that the cost/benefit of the Cooper sucks.

Performance:
A 2000 Subaru Impreza RS runs in the same autocross class as a Cooper S, so it can almost hang with the Cooper. I'm not saying they have the same driving feel, people will argue that all day. But according to the objective numbers, the RS hangs pretty close. AND, keep in mind that this is judgeing them based on the Cooper's home turf - not the RS's turf! The Cooper was optimzed only for that one purpose, whereas the RS's design was compromised in autocross so that it will kill the Cooper in rain, gravel, snow, rough roads, etc... The RS was built to be sturdy and capable, so consequently it's slower than it would be if Subaru had just slammed it, lightened it, and eliminated the AWD. Yet with all those compromises it can STILL hang with the Cooper in the autoX.

Reliability
Consumer reports gives horrible ratings to the Cooper reliability whereas the RS has been a recommended pick for years... used or new. Subaru is just a more quality car.

Convenience
4 full size adults in the RS

Price
Well, if the RS is winning in every category, it must be more expensive right? WRONG, the Subbie is a bit cheaper. That's just comparing MSRP. If you go used, then you can get RS's for 7-8k.

Getting chicks factor:
Ok, I think the Cooper might take this category. Most chicks don't really get the Subaru "ugly-duck but special on the inside" thing.

Bottom Line:
I'm not saying you should get an RS. I would probably go for something else. My only point is to use a good example to show you the cost/benefit of a Cooper.

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:37 am

I'm a fan of the EVO, really. I like the STI, but the price is kinda high for a "budget" car.

The EVO RS squeaks under the 30k mark, and looks normal enough to not get you arrested, while still being reliable, versatile, and fun.

Or a WRX.

rallysam · Post by **rallysam** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:52 am

Mini has great marketing. It's weird that everybody talks about how much it rocks at autocross. Then why is the S version put in the second slowest class? Why is the standard Mini classed in the absolute slowest class against our naturally aspirated BC-BFs and AMC Gremlins?

If you want a constructive suggestion based on the priorities you mention, I would get a Saab 9-2X Aero with the employee discount (i.e. a WRX for less money than a Cooper S)

For a non-Subaru alternative, pick anything in the D-stock class to get better performance than a mini. Then select based on published MPG, MSRP, and consumer reports reliability rating.

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:42 am

I can't live with any Impreza interior, so they're out on that alone. Plus the mileage isn't really any better than my POS. Honestly, the WRX has never interested me much and I don't want another car that will become a project like an older RS. I also don't want to be associated with newer Subaru owners in the same way that I wouldn't get a Camaro (if I actually wanted one) - wearing my hat cocked diagonally and my pants around my ankles may be in fashion, but that's not me ... at all. Neither is the yuppie demographic, though the Mini falls somewhat in that also, it's a different deal. Subaru doesn't make a rwd light performance car (though if they did currently, it would probably be ugly) so they're out as a mfg.

If the new Miata came in a coupe maybe, but I don't like roadsters. There's the Solstice, but any coupe version would be a way off and they just don't do it for me style-wise, plus it's a Pontiac. I really want the Elise, but that's out of reach. What else is there that's new or nearly new under $25k (even that much makes me shudder), gets over 30 mpg, is small, and fun to drive? There's the Mazda 3 hatch, and I'll take a look at them, but that's the only other car I can think of. I wish we got some of the cars Europe gets, but I probably wouldn't trust many of them either.

I don't care about AutoX in the least - this is a commuter car and I can't see myself ever bothering with any kind of organized sport. My dream job is a weapons smuggler or hit man - I'm a loner - it says something for you guys that I think you're all pretty cool to drive 450 miles to see some of you (when the car cooperates). That also leads me to the only thing I'm needing rear seats for is to put things. Anyway, if you're in the back seat, there's a reason. I once gave a kid I hated a ride home in the back of my 260Z. I made sure I hit every bump I could on the way home and he could barely get out when he got home. The begrudging thanks was priceless and I never had to talk to him again.

The perfect car is too old and impossible to find - 1984 GL hardtop. Of course, I'd have to do an EJ22 transplant and then there we go with the project cars again.

I thought of an older Miata as it's gay enough looking that I wouldn't be tempted to keep it long, but they're older or more $ than I want to pay ($3500 tops), plus being roadsters and way too impractical (with an Elise, I'd make do somehow) kills that.

I'm not shitting all over everyone's ideas, I appreciate it. I probably already considered some of them to begin with. Anyone know anything about the Mazda 3's? I like the 6 wagon a lot, but money, fwd, being a Mazda, and likely gas mileage put that one aside.

I still haven't driven a Mini, so I may not even like it (the clutch is kind of pussy). I do know their reputation for reliability is less than stellar, and that's my only real concern, but a BMW mechanic I know likes the cars alot and shits all over the BMWs he works on (but things are relative in that case). He says the earlier problems with the Minis should have been corrected.

Steve

skid542 · Post by **skid542** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:16 am

My brother finally settled on a Mazda 3 five door for his new car. It handles very well and feels pretty good. It will stick better than mine in both long sweeping turns and in the tights. But he got one of the 'manual' autos and it's just not as good as a manual. If I were to own one it'd have to be manual. The stock brakes are pretty good too, they aren't as good as the legacy turbo but it's pretty balanced. It's got a comfortable interior and a pretty decent stock sound system. I would suggest you go and at least check them out, may be just about what you want.

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:20 am

Thanks. I was just looking them up and they definitely need to be on my short list. Cheaper, too. Mileage is the same rating as the Mini. There's no question I'd get a manual. I like the fact that the styling's unique and modern, yet attractive. I just hope it doesn't torque steer, but it's not like it has that much power, so it's probably good. I'd get the 2.3. Hm.

Steve

rallysam · Post by **rallysam** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:35 am

That's cool. I thought handling might be a bigger priority since you mentioned Mini.

I like the Mazdas. I went to one of those Mazda promotional events, and I drove the 3 and the 6. Both good cars and fun. Less fun than our Subbies, but still fun. IIRC, the 3 gets rediculous, class-killing, good gas mileage. I've got this month's consumer reports in my hand and Mazda reliability is pretty much identical to Subaru... nearly as good as ToyHonda.

skid542 · Post by **skid542** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:41 am

My brother has the 2.3 and it doesn't exhibit much torque steer at the high rpms, during a launch, I wouldn't think it'd be much different than a legacy. The power is enough that my brother will definately pull away from me at highway speeds but not too bad. I'd say it'd fall in between a stock turbo legacy, maybe slightly modded, and a strong NA. It doesn't feel fast but it doesn't feel slow. Or atleast that's my feeling. The car definately feels a little bigger and heavier but smaller than the STi felt to me. While it feels heavier it still feels crisp and responsive and with stuff pulled out of the back it tracks pretty well through turns. When the back kicks out it does so reliably and comfortably.

It has tons of interior room. Andrew is making platform that will let him sleep in the back, he's about 6'5". I really have to say that I have been thoroughly impressed with his car.

entirelyturbo · Post by **entirelyturbo** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:53 am

I haven't driven a Mazda 3 5-speed, but I know the autos are dogs. In fact, I'm noticing that almost every other car I drive that's not a Subaru has nowhere near the low-end torque that I've grown so accustomed to. Even my granpa's auto wagon has waaay more low-end than everything else.

I don't like Mazdas anymore simply thanks to Ford. I've dealt with enough Fords that I know I want nothing to do with any of them.

If you're interested in a cute hatch though, consider a Scion xA. It actually has something called style, unlike its refrigerator cousin the xB. Yeah it's only got a 1.5 with 108hp, but when it's only moving 2300lbs, it moves along good enough. Plus, both those cars have a shitload of room inside.

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:12 am

Sorry, man, but never and a day. VW, Korean, Toyota/Scion are on my list of aversions along with sardines, hygenically-challenged women, and boy bands. The Mini marketing annoys me enough with its goofy casual 'hipster' approach likely developed from very recently graduated marketing students. Scion is even worse and the demographic is worse than the Camaro's IMO, but either way, the car does nothing for me other than the mileage figure, but if that's all that mattered I'd get an old Metro or diesel Golf.

Auto anything with an engine smaller than 3.5 liters seem slow to me. Plus to me a fun car with an auto's like screwing some hot chick in the dark, double wrapped, and through a hole in the sheet ... or one of those Mormon chastity suits. And maybe you'd also find she's Miss Double-Vaginal Fisting 2004 and you might as well put your junk in warm oatmeal.

I worry about the Ford/Mazda connection also. The platform is shared with Volvo and the current Euro Focus.

Steve

scottzg · Post by **scottzg** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:04 am

Why don't you like toyotas? My folks have owned several of them and they tend to be fairly fun and very very reliable.

rallysam, go look at what you see at national level autox, it's minis, celicas, and e36s. The mini IS too damn small though.

All the fwd cars are quite detuned from the factory, so it's tough to really say on the outset what's going to be fun.

rallysam · Post by **rallysam** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:10 pm

Yes, the Cooper S absolute dominates its class.... the second slowest class overall... the class full of cars for secretaries. For comparison, most of the ordinary, budget-minded performance cars that people talk about are faster and classed in D-stock... yet they don't have this image of being an autoX beast.

Dominating a class doesn't reflect on the car, it just reflects on SCCA having to draw the line somewhere. The SCCA looked at the data, and said "this car is closer in performance to an Impreza RS than to a WRX, so we'll stick it there". Doesn't that reflect pretty poorly on the Cooper S?

snowboarded · Post by **snowboarded** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:58 pm

just a suggestion, Neon srt-4? its small, quick and 30 highway mpg (22 city mpg

) plus they are probably fun to drive, havent drove one tho. Just a suggestion, i'm not an american car fan myself.
Or Nissan sentra SER. they're torquey.

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:30 pm

No way the SRT-4 would get good mileage, plus it's a Neon.

The only Toyota I'd want is a 2000GT. There are several I like, but I have no interest in owning them. Most I just don't like at all and I've even been bored driving the MR2 turbo. Character means more to me than absolute reliability (although I need a reasonable amount of that). They're not me at all and none appeal to me on looks. I also don't care for the number of them on the road. If I had the choice I'd build my own cars. Hell, if I could get away without breathing I'd do it just so as to be further removed from the masses.

Back on personality - it's like the great low-maintenance women I've dumped because they bored me while I still miss my high maintenance ex (she was also gorgeous). By that same personality defect of mine, that puts the Mini or Mazda 3 higher than any Toyota to start, not theat either are 250 GTOs, but they're much more interesting looking than any realistic Toy I can think of.

Steve

entirelyturbo · Post by **entirelyturbo** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 8:00 pm

snowboarded wrote:Just a suggestion, i'm not an american car fan myself.

Even though the SRT-4 is about as American as saki.

Toyotas are extremely boring, yes I know. I've always said I'd rather walk to work than drive a white automatic Camry. I just thought mileage and reliability was your #1 concern Steve. You've got your wagon for the personality car.

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 1:22 am

True, but it's a personality the chicks don't dig. I feel like a semi-ricer driving it lately since it's in a perpetual state of 1/2 done (externally anyway). I have to say if it weren't for the car's personality and the way it can still play combat in Boston traffic I'd be embarrassed to drive it.

Steve

corsair · Post by **corsair** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 2:51 am

word Steve, I'm embarassed as hell to start my car or drive it around school because of the massive exhaust leak (gotta get that exhaust squared away)

I saw a guy in an orange rag top Cooper S, pretty cool but it doesn't seem to be a chick getting car, I guess that depends a lot on the driver though right?

have you considered trying to find a Saabaru? I've seen 2 or 3 Bucknell students driving 9-2x's, all male, either with friends in the car or chicks so I guess they have a decent image. We know they're reliable and if you can still find one along with the employee pricing you'd be set right?

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:52 am

It has to get over 30 mpg and easily, not theoretically 30 (like maybe the 2.5 would get, though I'd never even consider the 2.5. That's like buying a 6 cylinder Mustang). I want to keep my old car and restore it, any newer Subaru or Saabaru would make it redundant and I just don't really go for them. The newest WRX facelift may look decent. I'll have to see it in person to tell, but I still wouldn't want one. The Mazda 3 looks to slot in for under $20k and I like the modern unique, yet attractive looks. This girl I'm kind of seeing (we're both busy) likes it too, for whatever that matters.

Steve

skid542 · Post by **skid542** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 1:25 pm

I'm telling you Steve, you need to go test drive one of the Mazda 3's.

corsair · Post by **corsair** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 2:22 pm

well then, bingo Steve, go for the 3

BAC5.2 · Post by **BAC5.2** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:35 pm

snowboarded wrote:just a suggestion, Neon srt-4? its small, quick and 30 highway mpg (22 city mpg ) plus they are probably fun to drive, havent drove one tho. Just a suggestion, i'm not an american car fan myself.
Or Nissan sentra SER. they're torquey.

Both suck. The only benefit of the Sentra SER, is for 05/06 they did a better job with the 6-speed, and you can get Brembo's without ABS, which is cool.

The SRT-4 sucks. I have driven them a bit, and I hate them with a passion.

EVO. Used, they go for not that much money, and you can leave it stock. Decent mileage, roomy, utility is fairly decent as well. Just nice cars. But they feel like your driving on edge all the time, so if that's not your bag, then that's not your bag.

I also like the E36 M3. I was actually going to consider getting a 97 M3 for a while. Price was right, gas mileage was right, it was comfy, fun, and a nice ride. But they are slow, and the one I was looking at had some problems. My requirement for a new car, is that it's faster than the Legacy.

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:25 pm

My requirement for a new car, is that it's faster than the Legacy.

So's mine

. Makes it easy. I want a fast commuter, which isn't the same as fast performance. I'd trust a Mitsubishi just above a VW or the SRT-4, though they look like fun cars. There's no way I'd get good mileage from it though - I can't drive like a grandma, so I need something that can get decent mileage getting beat on. My old GL would get 25 @ over 100 and close to 30 battling through Boston. That's lots of holding a lower gear, punching the gas on and off, hard braking, left-foot braking, bursts of acceleration and holding high rpms around corners and ramps. With the newer cars I wouldn't have to hold a lower gear as much thanks to the power increase, but I will use whatever it has, so it can't have potential to suck too much fuel. The supercharger on the Mini may not be a good thing, but it is still a 1.6 and the boost is less than 1 bar.

I'm very particular.

Steve

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 5:56 am

OK, so I drove the 3 hatchback and I'm pretty impressed. Clutch is manlier than the wimpy feeling Mini's also. Thing I don't like is the 17" wheels are standard. I'm going to see if I can swap them for 16"s at delivery. I think that will help the ride just that little bit that I think it needs. Seems to handle better than I thought, but I didn't want the salesman shitting himself, so I didn't really thrash it. I should be able to get it how I want for under 19k. Seemed pretty easy to work on for a transverse mounted engine. I like the sedan's grill better, but no big deal. Decently quick, quiet, and smooth. Felt solid, but not quite as much as a WRX (a real testament to the old Subaru platform). I like the interior, the configurable rear trays, and the adjustability of the driver's seat and wheel. Needs a pedal cover for the gas to make heel and toe a little easier, but it's not too bad. Glove box seems a little cheap, but man have economy (or near-economy) cars gotten better in quality!

New Imprezas were out next door and I have to say I like the new facelift much better than the last two. No WRXs, just 2.5s. I just really hate that fake alloy center console - it reminds me of a cheap home stereo. Not big on the taillights, but I don't hate them. The new look has me wondering about the WRX, but I don't want to spend that much and all the reasons I'd mentioned before.

Steve

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Mini Cooper S. maybe Mazda 3 5-door?

Mini Cooper S. maybe Mazda 3 5-door?