Holy hurricanes!

[legacy92ej22t]

Man, I was just watching the news and there is like 6 active hurricanes, 1 tropicle storm and 2 tropicle depressions or some crap, right now. 3 hurricanes in the western pacific and 3 in the atlantic. They showed a shot and it looked like something from the movie "The Day After Tomorrow"!

Global warming?

[scottzg]

[subawhatsubawho]

Welcome to my hell.....good ole' Port St. Lucie, FL

Home of the hurricane.

[snowboarded]

Do we know of any board members affected by the recent huricane and possibly future ones?
subawhatsubawho; is it at the point where they are saying it might strike your area? If so, might you be getting evacuated?

[jamal]

Global warming?

I was about to post that I would e-slap the first person to bring up global warming. It's pretty much all a bunch of tree-hugging hippie crap. Instead of starting that discussion, I'll instead provide some information about hurricanes. This is basically what I can come up with off the top of my head from the natural hazards class I took.

Hurricanes are neat. They start out as low pressure zones in Africa, and move across the pacific, gaining energy from the warmth of the water near the equator. I just noticed that hurricane Rita managed to thread it's way between cuba and florida, so it's going to get stronger before it hits somewhere in the gulf, probably Texas. Of course, for all we know it could swing up and nail New Orleans.

Gavelston Texas is built on a low barrier beach, and 6000 people were killed by a hurricane in 1900. They built a 17-ft high seawall after that.

An intersting thing about tropical cyclones is that they mostly tend to hit the eastern coast of continents. This is because ocean currents tend to flow south along the western coast, and north along the eastern coast, so the water along the west coast tends to be colder and basically prevents these storms, which need warm water (at least 80 F) to form. When they head toward the US, they'll start out headed towards cuba or the yucitan or whatever, and then loop around a high pressure zone farther north in the atlantic called the Bermuda High. The size of the Bermuda high determines when the storm will start to loop north, and where it will make landfall, if at all.

As far as Katrina goes, NO had it coming. The corps of engineers presented a plan for seawalls and dikes a long time ago, and it was rejected as being to expensive. So, they built smaller, less adequate protection for a large city that's mostly below sea level. I've heard that the storm surge may have been as high as 40 feet, which I thought was pretty much unimaginable. I have a bunch of high res pictures of NO, so here are a few of them scaled down:

This used to be floating:



I find this very intersting. When you build a bridge, you start by making the columns. These are piles that were pounded into the ground:



Then you lay the bridge decking, which is made of reinforced concrete. I'm guessing these individual sections probably span about 60 feet and are 80 feet wide.



As you can see, the winds just picked many of the sections up, and took them somewhere.

I think this is I-10:



Here you can see how the outer covering of the superdome room was partially ripped off. The uplift force on the dome itself must have been incredible. I suppose I could come up with a pretty good estimate if I knew how big the dome is:



Here's what happens when the walls around a city below sea level fail:



You can see that the lock is below the city which is below sea level, so water is actually flowing into the waterway and not out of it.









I wouldn't be surprised if I end up in NO to help rebuild in a year or two, assuming they even bother. I would probably just start from scratch somewhere nearby.

And all I have to worry about down here are unpredictable earthquakes, which could destroy my house at any time. That and the hobos. Crazy hobos...

[BAC5.2]

My girlfriends father and stepmother live in New Orleans. Their house was in about 4 feet of water. Pretty crappy, but at least it wasn't ALL under water.

Luckily they were all OK and were able to make it out of town before the storm hit.

[jamal]

Very good that they were able to get out. That place is going to be a mess for a very long time.

Here's some more stuff I just remembered:

In many parts of the carribean, they don't allow wood framed construction. It's very efficent, and very light, and doesn't do so well in high winds. After Hugo, or maybe Andrew, there was a push to completely revise the building code (in I believe Dade county). It wasn't ever done, and instead the safety factor was raised by some small amount. I think that the wind load that needed to be withstood was changed from 80psf to 90. 130mph winds will create a force of about 43psf. Winds in a hurricane can reach over 200 mph. I'm not sure what the pressure for that is, because my chart only goes up to 130. It's a lot more than 90psf, though. Probably more like 160. In any case, Dade county has probably the best code in the US for wind design. In other places in the country and even world, people will sometimes use Dade county's codes for wind design, and L.A. code for earthquake design.

Now I'm getting off track. Anyway, in the carribean, instead of building out of wood, which is actually more expensive anyway because the wood has to be imported, they build reinforced concrete columns, and fill in the spaces with masonry. Much stronger, pretty easy to build, and it doesn't rot from water damage like many wood homes that survive hurricanes. That's a good case of people building for the local conditions. Builders in the US don't really like doing things other than wood framed construction.

I will also concede that if global warming did actually exist, it would cause more frequent and stronger hurricanes.

Until then: LA LA LA LA LA I can't hear you LA LA LA LA LA

[Manarius]

Our Earth/Science teacher told us a long time ago that Global Warming doesn't exist...I believe him

[legacy92ej22t]

Global warming?

Hurricanes are neat. They start out as low pressure zones in Africa, and move across the pacific,

You mean across the Atlantic, right?



Global warming does exist, just not in the way that your "tree hugging hippies" like to say it does. It's a natural cycle. In the past there are periods of global warming that are usually followed by a large decline in atmospheric temperature, or an ice age. The cycle is already past do, I don't remember the exact numbers but it was like every 250-300 thousand years we have an ice age (please don't beat me up over these numbers.) and it's been 320k since the last or some crap. So we are past do for a very large global decline in atmospheric temperature or another ice age.

Better wax them boards boys!

[corsair]

my sister's husband owns a house in the Garden District, thankfully it was untouched by the storm, looters and such though, that wouldn't be nice

[Richard]

I agree. We (humans) have only been recording weather for how long? 100 to 150 years tops? What says that when Native Americans occupied the Continent of North America (pre 1492) hurricanes didn't bash the Gulf and Florida coast? I'm pretty sure they did back then. Possibly MORE frequently and MORE destructive. We just don't know.

I read somewhere that one volcano's eruption can shoot more crap into the atmosphere than all the emissions from automobiles from the time they were invented to the present. A hole formed in the ozone layer a while ago. Then it closed up. Taking this into effect, we can understand that the Earth is quite resiliant and ever changing.

If we (humans) were able to do something to make the weather less fierce and more nominal, than we would be to blame for causing the harsh weather. But we really can't do anything to make things go our way as far as more moderate weather, so we aren't the ones causing it.

There are as many reports proving Global Warming as there are discrediting it. Same with good uses of pot. This is what happens when we rely on other people's opinions. For every scientist who establishes global warming, there's probably a Sierra Club magazine in their desk and a hippie tree hugger financing the whole operation. And for every scientist discrediting global warming, there's probably a huge American SUV in their driveway and a check from an oil giant making it all happen.

But who knows? Maybe the Earth will start rotating lopsided from so many obese Americans running around. Or maybe we'll all implode. Figure things out for yourself and form your own opinion. You'll be better off.

[entirelyturbo]

A simple saying that says "Energy cannot be created or destroyed" comes to mind.

We have too much pride when it comes to affecting world climate. We really can't do anything to this earth that it can't do itself. Whatever Earth wants to do, it will do with or without our help.

The pollutants from the burning of fossil fuels might affect us now, but in millions of years, Earth will have cleaned that up completely to where there was no evidence that we even did it.

Besides, I think there will be a massive collapse of nature's balance from the overpopulation of humans, that will cause either a world famine or something. We can't just keep increasing in numbers like this forever.

[subawhatsubawho]

I live north of Miami, north of west palm beaach but I am right on the water. We had our asses handed to us late last year as Frances and Jeanne ripped thur and gave us a new respect for mother nature.

Back in 1928 there was a hurricane that came thru the palm beaches and killed 3000 people there alone. Nobody was prepared.

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/09/26/Weath ... anne.shtml

I will stay thru a cat3...anything past that and the house is on her own. She will be boarded up though.

[Richard]

subyluvr2212wrote:

Besides, I think there will be a massive collapse of nature's balance from the overpopulation of humans, that will cause either a world famine or something. We can't just keep increasing in numbers like this forever.

The biggest threat to mankind is mankind.

What people need in times of major crisis is competant leadership. Not weenies crying. Giulianni, though in a different situation, took the problem in one hand and came with a plan in the other. These trying times tests us as humans. Our faith in whatever, our ability to survive, and our appreciation of what we really have. I gave $100 to the Red Cross, even though I really couldn't spare it. But I'll survive knowing that so many people have nothing... not even a roof over their heads. I have become so thankful of my situation, even though I'm the only one with an income in a family of three. Seeing others go through so much strife makes my struggles seem petty and miniscule.

However, listening to all this political bickering makes me sick. Is it just me, or are the liberal Democrats trying to make this tragedy into some sort of political gain? Watching tv makes me sick at times. Everyone is trying to blame Bush at a time where people are homeless, sick and weary. So many theories of racial prejudice and divide. Reporters only showing the bad side of things, making up the news instead of reporting facts. CNN has actually been caught telling people to be angry and pissed off while being interviewed on camera. When a reporter asked a legitimate question about their ineptness of controlling the situation, a local Louisiana politician respond with "if you want to work for the White House, why don't you go on their payroll?"

People in places of leadership need to acknowledge their part in the many failures this tragedy has brought. Before that, though, they need to do their job and lead these people out of the danger and into prosperity. That is what leaders do. Anything less is the result of poor judgement.

[jamal]

You mean across the Atlantic, right?

Ooh, and you got me there.

But yeah, that's what I say. I'm in this class called third world cities for a diversity requirement, and thought it might sort of fit in with my civil engineering a little better than some of the other offerings. So now I get to go in and listen to some hippie from UCLA tell us about global warming and the rainforests and stuff. I didn't go last week, but I think I'll end up arguing with him a lot this semester.

[Richard]

Let that hippie know that no country today will stifle and halt their economy to save trees on an assumption of "we might be causing this "goofball warming".

Also, ask him why he personally hasn't put out the unchecked coal mine fires in North Korea. They're letting out more CO2 than anything else in the United States.

[jamal]

Heh. I was just reading about our final paper:

Due Date/Format to turn in: Due day of the final exam. Email it to me (Please do not submit a hardcopy. Save paper)

awwww

[professor]

somebody moved the path of Hurricane Charley on that map for greater hilarity. It exited Florida on the east coast around Daytona (right in the middle of Gore's counties in blue), and did little to Jacksonville

[snowboarded]

Besides, I think there will be a massive collapse of nature's balance from the overpopulation of humans, that will cause either a world famine or something. We can't just keep increasing in numbers like this forever.

We can increase in numbers like this for a long time to come. Do you know how much unused or poorly used space there is? The problem comes from overcrowding in certain areas, big business ruining other areas, and general greed of mankind. it's not the population thats the problem, its the people.

[entirelyturbo]

Space isn't the only problem snowboarded. What about food? water? oxygen? The more people there are, the less room there is for farms, water treatment, forests, etc.

Oh and...

However, listening to all this political bickering makes me sick. Is it just me, or are the liberal Democrats trying to make this tragedy into some sort of political gain? Watching tv makes me sick at times. Everyone is trying to blame Bush at a time where people are homeless, sick and weary. So many theories of racial prejudice and divide. Reporters only showing the bad side of things, making up the news instead of reporting facts. CNN has actually been caught telling people to be angry and pissed off while being interviewed on camera. When a reporter asked a legitimate question about their ineptness of controlling the situation, a local Louisiana politician respond with "if you want to work for the White House, why don't you go on their payroll?"

Richard, you are my new best friend!! PM me and I might have something of interest for you

[Tleg93]

Halliburton gets Katrina contract, hires former FEMA director

WASHINGTON, Sept. 1 (HalliburtonWatch.org) -- The US Navy asked Halliburton to repair naval facilities damaged by Hurricane Katrina, the Houston Chronicle reported today. The work was assigned to Halliburton's KBR subsidiary under the Navy's $500 million CONCAP contract awarded to KBR in 2001 and renewed in 2004. The repairs will take place in Louisiana and Mississippi.

KBR has not been asked to repair the levees destroyed in New Orleans which became the primary cause of most of the damage.

Since 1989, governments worldwide have awarded $3 billion in contracts to KBR's Government and Infrastructure Division to clean up damage caused by natural and man-made disasters.

Earlier this year, the Navy awarded $350 million in contracts to KBR and three other companies to repair naval facilities in northwest Florida damaged by Hurricane Ivan, which struck in September 2004. The ongoing repair work involves aircraft support facilities, medium industrial buildings, marine construction, mechanical and electrical improvements, civil construction, and family housing renovation.

In March, the former director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), which is tasked with responding to hurricane disasters, became a lobbyist for KBR. Joe Allbaugh was director of FEMA during the first two years of the Bush administration.

Today, FEMA is widely criticized for its slow response to the victims of Hurricane Katrina.

Allbaugh managed Bush's campaign for Texas governor in 1994, served as Gov. Bush's chief of staff and was the national campaign manager for the Bush campaign in 2000. Along with Karen Hughes and Karl Rove, Allbaugh was one of Bush's closest advisers.

"This is a perfect example of someone cashing in on a cozy political relationship," said Scott Amey, general counsel at the Project on Government Oversight, a Washington watchdog group. "Allbaugh's former placement as a senior government official and his new lobbying position with KBR strengthens the company's already tight ties to the administration, and I hope that contractor accountability is not lost as a result.



Who's using Katrina for political gain??

[Busdriver]

jamal wrote:
"ocean currents tend to flow south along the western coast, and north along the eastern coast"
This is for the northern hemisphere only, southern is opposite, Humboldt current comes to mind...

jamal wrote: "I will also concede that if global warming did actually exist, it would cause more frequent and stronger hurricanes."
Hasn't this been the case over the last decade or more?

scottzg - funny picture if it wasn't so devastating...

no offence to anyone...

[Tleg93]

Global warming is a fact. It's definitely cyclical, whether we influence it or not is another question. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. We have more pressing problems at the moment.

[subawhatsubawho]

15-20 years of sick huricanes like Andrew, Jeanne, Frances, Katrina, and Rita....It's like a prison sentence.

[Richard]

Here's an answer - move away from hurricane zones. I wouldn't put up a lemonade stand on a runaway truck trap. The chances are likely that a runaway truck would run my ass over.

You have the ability to make your own decisions. If you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen. Noboby's gonna hold you back.