2.5 with 22E NA heads build ?'s

[skid542]

So I finally getting into a position where I can start doing some real engine work and I want to give my daily driver a little more umph. I have a 96' Legacy Outback with the 2.2 and would like to have around 180-200 at the crank and stay NA. I've done some reading on Matt's Frankenstien motor and believe it's the direction I want to go. I definately want to stay NA so I don't have to mess with changing crossmembers, maintain super reliability, good gas milage, and IIRC Matt's build had a nice flat torque curve. I also do a fair bit of 'off-roading' and want to keep the NA for it's smooth response. I'm not looking for this to be my race car, that will be in the form of a 93', but I just want some more up and go and some sleeper points .

So my questions, keep in mind I always read the build threads but am still a bit of a newbie when it comes to this 'in-depth' stuff. Matt, I have done some searching and will continue though I haven't had much luck with the searching on NASIOC but feel free to direct me to keep searching or shot me a link instead of a long response as I have followed your route enough to know it's what I'm looking for.

As I understand it, a Phase I 2.5 bottom end is preferential to the Phase II for this application as it has the higer compression ration ~11.3:1 as opposed to ~10.2:1?

I plan on using my first gen 2.2 heads that have HLA's. I am under the impression that they flow slightly less than my single exhaust port solid rockers that are on my 96'. However, since I have time on my hands I figured I'd give the heads some porting and match the intake ports to the intake manifold - I do have an extra set to experiment on first before I mess with the set that will go on the 2.5 short block. I am also planning on putting in some delta cams with the 220 grind. How's this sounding?

I would like to be able to use my current ECU and wiring. Since I will be using 2.2 heads and the 2.2 intake manifold the sensors should match? I will swap throttle bodies so the TPS will have the correct number of wires. But what about the cam and crank sensors? Also, what timing belt will I be using? I pressume the same one for the 2.2?

It is also my understanding that the 2.2 ECU is a little milder than the 1.8 that Matt used. How much difference is this expected to make?

I read a bit about octane requirements but most of these seemed directed at running boost, which I am not planning on. I usually run on 89, will this work with the higher comp. or will I be looking at running something else?


I think that's all the questions I had for now. Please feel free to give as much or little input as you'd like and I'll keep researching. Like I said, I do have some time and I'd like to be able to do this with a tranny swap (mine's working it's way out...) and do new/stiffer engine and tranny mounts all at the same time both to make the job easier and further my ultimate goal of doing this swap and not having to mess with my drive train (beyond routine clutches) for a long time to come (so I can focus on my 93' build I dream about).

Thanks guys.

[206er]

when you are doing this kind of swap, it is just the block. that means your whole top end, all sensors, timing gear, what have you stays as stock.
I have no idea about the CR for this type of motor using single port heads as i dont know the volume of them but I seriously doubt they flow better than the dual ports. porting, yes. but stay with mild cleanup removing casting flaws and rough stuff until you really know what the hell youre doing. its rather easy to make a port that falls flat on its face at low rpm's and doesnt gain any power, peak or otherwise over stock.
what elevation are you at there in idaho? up here at 4900+ Ive run a tank of straight 87, tanks of half 91 half 85, all sorts of combos like that just for kicks. but at sea level I would run premium all the time. less moles of air in the motor means less squeeze so you can alter your octane to suit. of course i have no method to telling what this is nor do I care as long as it runs fine on what Ive been feeding it.

you might consider skipping a hi comp build on your DD and leave it stock if you have a project to throw time and money at. you can run cheap gas and thats a thousand bucks or so youre not spending on the DD.

[skid542]

Thanks Jeremy. My porting/polishing is definately going to be very mild and just removing flaws. I'm a graduated aerospace engineer and I focused my education on aerodynamics/flows but am by no means an expert on the finer details of head flows though I do know how easy it is to upset flows with very small changes in contour .

My elevation is around 2100ft. I drive about 5 mi to work everyday so my commutes are fairly small and when I'm running errands I like to run it a little hard. If I can get away with 89 I'd be stoked, if I have to do the 91... well I can probably handle that too. And I will be staying NA so I won't be worried about the boosting issues.

Another question, I am under the impression that I want to use the Phase I headgasket? Are there any suggestions for a headgasket that won't blow?

Thanks again guys.

[skid542]

I found this - http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... ?t=1107352.

How important is it to drill the extra holes in the HG for the cooling passages?

[206er]

hmm maybe you should do some reading on head porting then, you'd probably know exactly what was going on and could make those things flow like an ej25.
I used phase 1 DOHC MLS(multi layer steel) Victor Reinz gaskets from napa and didnt do a damn thing to them. get some type of mls gasket for sure. I forget whether or not you can use the thinner phase 2 SOHC gasket with a phase 1 build like this but if it would, it should bump the compression to 11.5:1 which is pretty crazy to run pump gas on.
cams header and exhaust would go great with the motor. when I went from stock to a very open 2.5" it woke it up no end. cams will probably do the same. I'm still lacking a bit in the top end without cams.

[555BCTurbo]

I am planning to do a similar build (dual port 2.2 heads) to put in my GL wagon

[206er]

it will rock in a light car at sea level.
does your car have the DR 5sp or the RX type trans?
or you could skip the adapter nonsense, run a EJ trans and swap it to 5 lugs.
though if its a rallycross car you might just leave it stock motor so you dont get bumped to open(unless you want to), I forget how the rules work out there tho.

[555BCTurbo]

It will have the dual range by the time the swap is done, and I will probably swap it to 5 lug with XT6 parts whenever I can come by some.

We don't wanna run the stock motor because it is total crap, and I don't really wanna go through an EA82 every season...

We don't rallycross ultra competitively, so we ain't too worried about class

[GLCraigGT]

It will have the dual range by the time the swap is done, and I will probably swap it to 5 lug with XT6 parts whenever I can come by some.

We don't wanna run the stock motor because it is total crap, and I don't really wanna go through an EA82 every season...

We don't rallycross ultra competitively, so we ain't too worried about class

You would be better off with an EJ Trans then trying to use a D/R 5-speed from a Gen3 GL. An EJ trans is a better match for the powerband and I found with rallyX that low range is pretty pointless; even in my 84GL.

[555BCTurbo]

Ok...the car is not going to be solely a rallycross car...so I am going to use the D/R tranny...

And...since the car is sponsored, I can change gear ratios and trannies pretty much whenever I desire...

I want the car to be 4wd, not AWD...

[206er]

craig have you ever gotten into 3rd gear in low range in a rallycross? I kinda figured that it would be nice to be able to up and down shift 3rd to second with a nice and close ratio. downshifting from second is doable but not too fun with the 5mt. though I definitely have done it pretty hard when I got the "red mist."

[GLCraigGT]

craig have you ever gotten into 3rd gear in low range in a rallycross? I kinda figured that it would be nice to be able to up and down shift 3rd to second with a nice and close ratio. downshifting from second is doable but not too fun with the 5mt. though I definitely have done it pretty hard when I got the "red mist."

I've hit 3rd maybe 5 times, but remember that my old GL has just a 4-speed so the 2nd to 3rd spread is a bit more then on a 5-speed. Also the 2nd to 1st downshift is pretty smooth on mine as long as the engine is below 3.5kRpm.

[skid542]

So anyone want to take a crack at the rest of my intial questions?

Phase I vs. Phase II bottom end?

How detrimental will my 2.2 ECU be compared the 1.8? How hard to swap?

HLA heads vs Solid rocker heads?

Thanks guys.

[Matt Monson]

Hi,
Took me a day or two to get in here.

I prefer the phase I for the reasons you already covered. I know one guy on NASIOC who ran a phase II block with phase II (single port) heads and had detonation anytime he went below 91 octane. He was down near sea level, but I still probably wouldn't do it up here. Technically, the one we built and ran with the 1.8l ECU was a phase 1.5 block. It was a '99 engine that has slightly lower dish pistons than the earlier ones, but just happened to have an end thrust bearing. '99's can go either way on the bearing placement depending on when they were made. I am personally a bit of a paradoz because I will do these different an unique things like mixing and matching parts, but am still conservative.

It is quite possible that with an Ej22 ECU, which is a little less agressive on the timing than the 1.8l ECUs you could get away with a phase II block. but my thinking is when everyone dismisses the phase I blocks and sells them for so much cheaper, why not use them? They aren't really bad engines. And it's a safer approach as far as being detonation resistant.

As for how difficult? No different. Just use the intake manifold and wiring that came with your car. We used the Ej18 stuff because it was an Ej18 car. I have done this several more times with other people and they were all Ej22's.

As for which heads? You've got me. I have never seen either one of them bench flowed. You can get Delta cams for either one of them. You can get headers for either one of them. It's really a toss up. But if you are set on using a phase II block, use the phase II heads. Why? Because they have a couple more cc's of combustion chamber volume and you will avoid putting your compression ratio through the roof. Just assume that henceforth you will run it on premium.

I also think that with an AFC you could tweak more power out of the 22 ECU. Just get the car on the dyno and get some AF readings along with power numbers and then adjust accordingly...

[skid542]

Thank you very much Matt. I have been hoping your expertise would make it's way in here.

Your confirmations and acceptance of the Phase I seals that deal for me. I will soon then start shopping for one in good condition. I don't mind redoing seals but I'd prefere not to have to do any serious rebuilds on this one due to things like piston walking. Do you know of any good Phase I blocks?


So then the current plan is Phase I block, Phase I heads (I have them spare and can build the engine without swapping heads on the current engine in my car) and then run it all on the 22 ECU. I'll get the delta cams, still going to go with the 220 grind - I pressume if this was the wrong choice it would have been mentioned. And then once that's all up and running then I'll start with the AFC and tuning.

Thanks again guys for the help and Matt if you don't mind I may be sending you a few PM's in the coming months asking specific questions as they arise.

[greg donovan]

any updates on this project?

we are getting serious about our legacy rallycrosser and may do this as well.

the car is a 90 legacy and we would be using the top end that is in the car.

[skid542]

Unfortunately I don't have any updates other than I've got the OBX EL's ready to put on. My tranny is on the way out and if I drop the hybrid in right now it will kill the little life I have left. Until I have the money to do both - which WILL happen, I'm stuck with the 2.2 shortblock.

Admittedly, the new SS pretty much used up the money I had been saving for both the shortblock and the tranny.... But it has reminded me of how slow the OBW is and the real need to get it spiced up a bit.

If you do this, keep me updated. Again though, this will happen and hopefully within 6 months and I will let you know how it all works out if you haven't discovered yourself yet. I'll be doing the cams and headers first and that should happen within a couple months.

[douglas vincent]

I suspect I will be soon building an NA block since I have a rear thrust bearing 2.5, and am getting two more 2.5 blocks with internals next week.....

Not sure if I am going stock, hybrid, high compression, or forged stock piston with turbo (low boost)......

[greg donovan]

how can you tell if it has a rear thrust bearing w/out tearing the engine down?

why is that more desireable.

[douglas vincent]

If you have a random engine, I don't think you can tell where the main bearing is...

Why is it more desirable?

I don't think it really is IMPO....

I am building a 2.5 NA block with pinned cylinders and sticking the STI crank into it WITHOUT moving the main bearing to the rear. There is a built in 1/32"ish crank walk by doing this. And guess what? I bet it runs forever (or until I splatter that Mahle piston into a 1000 bits)....