Rebuilding my engine...what would you do with $5k?

Kilroy · Post by **Kilroy** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:36 pm

I'm looking at doing a rebuild on the motor in my '94 JDM Legacy GT Wagon (EJ20H) and I've been quoted roughly $5K to do the job including pulling and reinstalling the engine. The motor starts knocking badly once I hit 2000 RPM, so I'm thinking it spun a bearing, but until we get in there there's no real way to tell. I've crawled all over the engine top and bottom trying to nail down where the sound is coming from, but there is no real way to tell even with a stethoscope. I was originally going to pull the motor and tear it down myself, but I only have experience with EJ22 engines and this twin turbo setup could be a real monster. Even changing spark plugs is a PITA, you have to remove pipes and wires just to get at them.

I'm looking for other options to spend my $5K on while the motor is out and perhaps increase the HP numbers and still have a reliable vehicle. Any options other than just a rebuild (different engine, switching to single turbo, etc.) will have to include rewiring, which could be a nightmare. I considered purchasing another EJ20H and dropping it in, but then I have no idea what kind of shape the inside of the motor is in and I'm back to square one.

The work will all be done at a performance shop which has extensive experience with Subaru engines.

Thoughts? Options?

Skruyd · Post by **Skruyd** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:22 am

You sure it's not spark knock? Could be and injector going out and the cylinder isn't getting enough fuel to where the cylinder is just knocking? If it was a bearings I would assume that it would be knocking no matter where the rpm's are. For being quoted five grand to have your motor pulled and rebuild sounds like an ok price pending on where they got five grand from. By any chance do you have a paper telling you the price of everything, or did they just shoot a number out when they heard or you told them it was knocking? More questions than answers sorry

Kilroy · Post by **Kilroy** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:51 am

HEHEH, I'm sure I have more questions than you about this.

$1500 of the $5k is going towards pulling and installing the engine (17 hours) and the rest towards the rebuild. Unfortunately, they can't give me a definite number on paper because they won't know what they are dealing with until they crack it open. That's pretty much the same answer I've received from 4 different place I have called. I got tossed a few numbers in different situations ($800 for new forged pistons is one of them).

I drained the oil today and there were no shavings or flecks of metal in them, not even a trace.

How loud would spark knock be? This is quite loud and 'seems' to be coming from the left side of the car (facing it from the front), but it's so damned hard to find an exact spot that the sound is coming from that I really can't tell. You make a valid point that the bearings should be making noise no matter where the RPMs are, I hadn't thought of that. Can anyone verify this?

I considered just purchasing another motor and dropping it in, but once again I would have a motor that could die in 5 minutes or 5 years. At least with the rebuild I should have some peace of mind.

Kilroy · Post by **Kilroy** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:10 am

BAH!! I just made a short video of the knocking sound and I think I made it worse in the process.

It was only knocking over 2000 RPM before, now it does it all the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWEJWXtfCiM

BAH!

93forestpearl · Post by **93forestpearl** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:43 am

Yeah, you can have light rod knock over a certain RPM. A friends motor only knocked over 5k before I tore it down, and she was definitely on her way out.

17 hours to pull and install the motor

Kilroy · Post by **Kilroy** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:27 am

93forestpearl wrote:Yeah, you can have light rod knock over a certain RPM. A friends motor only knocked over 5k before I tore it down, and she was definitely on her way out.

17 hours to pull and install the motor

Yea, they said 17 hours at one place. I just contacted another shop about an hour ago and was told 12 hours. I've pulled an EJ22 in a wrecking yard using an A-frame in 2.5 hours, I'm pretty sure I could have put it back within 3-4 (giving extra time for fighting with the 4EAT mating). I can't understand why it would take so much longer for this engine.

93forestpearl · Post by **93forestpearl** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:58 am

Maybe they are not familiar with subarus?

I'd try and find a shop that has a lot of experience with that particular setup.

Kilroy · Post by **Kilroy** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:24 am

93forestpearl wrote:Maybe they are not familiar with subarus?

I'd try and find a shop that has a lot of experience with that particular setup.

My Subaru is the only one in the city (as far as I know, it may be the only one in the province) with this particular setup, so finding a shop with ANY experience with it is going to be tough.

The shop that I am currrently leaning towards has plenty of experience with JDM vehicles and they are currently working on a 300ZX TT, so the twin turbo setup won't be new to them and they have done domestic Subarus in the past.

Skruyd · Post by **Skruyd** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:40 pm

Sorry about the whole making knocking worse but you can prolly call up the dealership and see what is book time to pull the motor. Considering this is the time the shops are supposed to use to know how much to charge. Just try to find out what they are charging for everything because you can always find it cheaper. Most of the time just paying shipping because I'm sure the taxes will come out to be more. If they are charging that of course. Also with the knock being that bad in the video, most likely they will be able to turn your crank. I ran mine up and down the street (about 15 miles) be for I stopped. The crank was only .007 off spec

asc_up · Post by **asc_up** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:47 pm

Wow 12 hours still seems like a loooooooong time. I can pull one in about an hour and a half, by myself. So I'd just pull it yourself and deliver the motor to them and have them do whatever they need to do at that point and then pick it up when it's done and drop it in yourself.

asc_up · Post by **asc_up** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:53 pm

And for what it's worth, PIA (a VERY reputable Subaru shop here in WA) quoted me $3,000 for a full engine rebuild.

Kilroy · Post by **Kilroy** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:46 pm

asc_up wrote:And for what it's worth, PIA (a VERY reputable Subaru shop here in WA) quoted me $3,000 for a full engine rebuild.

The $5k includes their time to pull and replace the engine (~$1500), so just the rebuild itself would run about $3500CAN. At today's exchange rate, $3000US is $3465CAN. If that rebuild included R&R on the engine, then it's definitely a much better deal than what I have been quoted for, although you were quoted for a USDM engine and they may not quote the same for a JDM engine.

All of the additional pipes and wires are what's stopping me from pulling the engine myself. I'm afraid I won't get it all back together again properly. I've been seriously considering taking lots of photos and tagging all of the lines and just getting at it. The last engine I pulled included the transmission, but if I were to pull this one I would be leaving the transmission in the vehicle and I've read that they can be a bit of a b!tch to get mated properly again.

If we decide not to go camping next weekend, I just might grow a pair and tackle this sucker.

Where are you in Washington? I have a friend in the Sammamish area that I have been wanting to visit this summer, perhaps putting this engine in the truck and bringing it down to let someone with proven experience (PIA) tackle it would be the way to go. Then I could get a good visit in at the same time.

ScottyS · Post by **ScottyS** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:46 pm

If you have $5k available for a motor, and experience already pulling and installing a motor, then I would say don't waste any money on simple mechanic work. Do the pulling and re-install yourself! Strip the accessories and hoses off too, just give them the heads and block to rebuild.

Spending some time taking photos, drawing diagrams, and labeling everything is easy. These things look complicated until you take one apart and put it back together the first time.

Put all the dough into performance engine work and components, including as many new sensors, hoses, and other stuff you can think of.

In these old cars, a brand new motor still doesn't help all the old wiring, hoses and sensors from dragging the car down.

Just my 2 cents.

93forestpearl · Post by **93forestpearl** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:04 am

^ Yes. Masking tape and a Sharpie are key if you are unfamiliar with it.

$3k still seems steep to me, but I've never priced it. $1500 and self labor builds a stout bottom end.

Post by **Legacy777** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:27 am

Ditto the pictures and labeling. There is also probably some factory manuals out there that may help if you get in a bind.

Here's pics from my engine rebuild....as you can see....I didn't skimp on the pictures

www.main.experiencetherave.com/subaru/images/ej22t

Aerotech · Post by **Aerotech** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:39 am

For about $1900 you can upgrade to a new EJ257 STI shortblock... If nothing's wrong with your heads, just replace the shortblock.
I ended up spending about $5K on my motor, including the 257.

Kilroy · Post by **Kilroy** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:31 pm

I got a call from a performance shop in my area and they suggested putting a WRX shortblock on the bottom. If I deliver the motor to them with nothing but the longblock (IE. I take out the motor and take off all of the bolt-ons), the cost of the rebuild including the new 2.5 bottom end is $4500. I asked about requiring any new wiring and they 'mentioned' that I would need new engine management as well. I asked what that would cost and they said $1750 to start, plus all the time for wiring (20+ hours).

It's a good thing I asked questions, if I had went ahead with it for $4500 they would have had me by the balls with their whole 'engine management' costs.

I told them that I had drained the oil and there were no metals filings, so they figure it's not a spun bearing and are leaning towards a piston due to detonation from the lower octane fuel (I used 94RON vs. ~95-96 RON for Japanese fuel) available in Canada. 94RON is the best you can get here.

At this point, I am going to pull the motor myself. I took pictures today and I don't think it will be that bad. My last couple of pulls were EJ22s with the 4EAT attached, so it was fairly easy to disconnect everything (including the halfshafts) and yank the whole works in the wrecking yard.
What kind of problems can I expect with just pulling the motor and not the diff/transmission with it? Should it come apart fairly easy once it's all unbolted?

turboleg · Post by **turboleg** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:48 pm

I agree with Aerotech at the $5K point you could get a nice short block do everything yourself and have some $$ left over I bet.

Kilroy · Post by **Kilroy** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:20 pm

If I swap in an EJ257 short block it's simply a physical swap, correct?

Would I need to modify my current ECU? If so, what kind of suggestions for a replacement can be made?

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Rebuilding my engine...what would you do with $5k?

Rebuilding my engine...what would you do with $5k?