Anyone heard of Formula SAE?

Imprezive · Post by **Imprezive** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:29 pm

So last weekend I was up at Thunderhill Raceway here in California for the NASA 25hours of thunderhill endurance race. We got a couple volunteers to help our team out, one of which recently graduated with a BS in Mechanical engineering, which just so happens to be what I'm pursuing. I got to talking to him and he told me about this competition that many schools worldwide participate in called Formula SAE. Basically each school recruits a team of college students to build a open-wheeled formula style auto-cross car.

The teams build the cars ground up, probably about 80% custom parts and things like engines/tires rotors etc are purchased. I did some googling and some of the teams get pretty dang serious.

Anyway, pretty awesome deal. Just wondering if anyone has heard/participated in it. I'm definitely going to do it when I get to that level >.<

Apex3 · Post by **Apex3** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:37 am

Are you in college? Because there's no "level" really, as long as you're in college.

I started to do it here, kept forgetting to go to meetings, lol. And a lot of the guys are d-bags that I don't really like being around...I might just make myself do it though come January, it'd be good for my career.

Imprezive · Post by **Imprezive** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:23 am

As in level I mean a 4year college, I'm at te local community college getting all my math done.

Ya the guy I spoke with said there was a lot of ego's. I don't really get how there could e so many assholes but I guess that's just how it is...

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:10 am

If it's anything like automotive design, the density of ego will be shocking. We're talking third-world dictator level of asshole and the more mediocre the talent, the bigger that ego. It's where my dislike for the majority of "car guys" started. Talk about boring and one-track minded! On the other hand, you'll probably also meet some people with amazing abilities.

93forestpearl · Post by **93forestpearl** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:32 am

Steve hit the nail on the head. We have a pretty serious FSAE team here at MNSU, Mankato. The amount of politics is ridiculous. When people have premonitions of what is going to work and will not deviate from their ideas, a lot of friction happens. I haven't gotten involved in the program in Mankato, but several friends of mine have.

It is a cool project though. They have come out with some pretty sweet cars. Two years ago the car was really baddass. They used a turbo from the Arctic Cat four-stroke sled and they could barely keep tires on the thing. There is something that breaks every year though, DNFing them in something like the endurance race. That time is was too few bolts for the ring gear.

I got a FSAE team started up at U of M, Duluth when I was up there. It was an insane amount of work, between designing things, trying to get people involved, and finding sponsors to the tune of about $20k. Also, people thought they could just show up and build a car, which is not how it works. Research, design, redesign, economics, etc all are a factor, and the fun part is when you actually get to build something. I don't know how many iterations of the front suspension I did in Mitchell to get the roll-center to stay put and the side-view-swing-arm to be decent within the constraints I had. Susprog is also a good suspension design package. If the team is serious, I'm sure they already have one of the two.

If you want to get involved, start reading some of Carrol Smith's books, like Tune To Win, Engineer To Win, etc. There are plenty of other materials out there to verse yourself in race car design.

jamal · Post by **jamal** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:19 am

yeah I'm back taking a few classes to go to grad school and have been to a few meetings. Everyone thinks they're an expert race car builder.

93forestpearl · Post by **93forestpearl** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:55 am

jamal wrote:yeah I'm back taking a few classes to go to grad school and have been to a few meetings. Everyone thinks they're an expert race car builder.

LOL!!!!!!! So true.

As long as people are willing to learn and try things knowing they might not have it right the first time, things can be good.

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:25 am

Dan, you mentioned a hot rod you were building in another thread... Curious as to what it is.

206er · Post by **206er** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:33 am

my alma mater(colorado state u) has a program but from what I hear it's very mismanaged with a lot of the aforementioned ego fest as well. kinda speaks to the stereotypical engineers shortcomings LOL. had I gone ME I would probably have tried to participate. seems like a great resume builder as well as getting to learn a fair bit while having fun with something hands on. how do any ME's find time for it with a full class schedule though?

93forestpearl · Post by **93forestpearl** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:35 am

Sorry if I mislead. By hotrod, I mean my Legacy I've been throwing parts at for almost nine years. The black hole that it is makes it a hot rod for me.

When I have the time for something old, either a '66 Impala (my first car) or a '71-72 Chevy truck will get worked over. With a modern powertrain. Fuck carburetors.

206er · Post by **206er** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:41 am

those C10's with the trailing arm rear suspension are bad ass. beautiful looks and from what an ex coworker told me they hook up awesome. no wheelhop at all.

93forestpearl · Post by **93forestpearl** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:41 am

206er wrote:my alma mater(colorado state u) has a program but from what I hear it's very mismanaged with a lot of the aforementioned ego fest as well. kinda speaks to the stereotypical engineers shortcomings LOL. had I gone ME I would probably have tried to participate. seems like a great resume builder as well as getting to learn a fair bit while having fun with something hands on. how do any ME's find time for it with a full class schedule though?

At the school I'm finishing up with(in May, btw), the AET students work on that project, meaning Automotive Engineering and Technology. I'm not a fan of their program honestly. They don't even have to take diffEQ or calc 3 or a real physics, for fucks sakes. Anyways, they have the time, and the ME program here does not. Not to say the local ME kids could shift a pair of pliers if their life depended on it. One of them wanted to build a roof rack out of 1" x 1.5" solid aluminum bar stock. I told him his roof wouldn't hold half of what that rack could, lol.

93forestpearl · Post by **93forestpearl** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:44 am

206er wrote:those C10's with the trailing arm rear suspension are bad ass. beautiful looks and from what an ex coworker told me they hook up awesome. no wheelhop at all.

Yes, this. I love the look. I have a hard time deciding if I like a shortbox or longbox, because they both look great with some attitude. A big block with a pair of 40R's and fuel injection would be a hoot, to say the least.

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:48 am

Ah, that's what I thought, but figured maybe I missed something and was curious. The only thing I could picture would be maybe an Factory Five '33 Ford as it marries modern chassis design with the old style. I'm likely using their front end for Tigershark.

93forestpearl · Post by **93forestpearl** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:54 am

God knows I'd love to marry old school styling with a modern unitbody vehicle. Time and money, and my money tree didn't bloom this year, lol.

I have a hard time justifying a lot of money towards a car that could kill me in an instant. Not to say I have the dough to throw around, but damn. They say they don't build cars like they used to, and I say thank fucking budda (or god, or whatever).

206er · Post by **206er** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:06 am

93forestpearl wrote:[ One of them wanted to build a roof rack out of 1" x 1.5" solid aluminum bar stock. I told him his roof wouldn't hold half of what that rack could, lol.

and this kid was an engineer? anyone can build something totally overkill and have it hold up. how many of these kids are actually living in reality? I know my last engineer roommate was astounded when I was building exhaust out of mandrel bends lol. I once asked him why he wanted to be an engineer, if it was because he had an interest in cars, metallurgy, or something like that? well, he couldnt give me a straight answer. I've known some awesome ones too though. one designed a portable two stroke diesel powered water pump for farmers in 3rd world countries that in theory could be totally self sustained with homemade/waste fuel. he built a working prototype himself and everything. the crazy part was that it was NA(2 stroke diesel).

93forestpearl · Post by **93forestpearl** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:35 am

206er wrote:
93forestpearl wrote:[ One of them wanted to build a roof rack out of 1" x 1.5" solid aluminum bar stock. I told him his roof wouldn't hold half of what that rack could, lol.
and this kid was an engineer? anyone can build something totally overkill and have it hold up. how many of these kids are actually living in reality? I know my last engineer roommate was astounded when I was building exhaust out of mandrel bends lol. I once asked him why he wanted to be an engineer, if it was because he had an interest in cars, metallurgy, or something like that? well, he couldnt give me a straight answer. I've known some awesome ones too though. one designed a portable two stroke diesel powered water pump for farmers in 3rd world countries that in theory could be totally self sustained with homemade/waste fuel. he built a working prototype himself and everything. the crazy part was that it was NA(2 stroke diesel).

Like a Detroit diesel? Those were 2 strokes for a long time.

Anyways, many many engineering majors are simply kids that are good at math. Engineering sounds cool and the starting pay is good, so they go into it. Here is a little story of mine...

I was in Engineering 1215, Introduction to Design and Manufacturing. We spent 2/3 of the time in the computer lab playing with Mechanical Desktop, which was eventaully replaced with CATIA. Anyways, we learned the program, then spent more and more time in the machine shop where we built small air motors. I was on the lathe one day about to crank some parts out when I noticed the tool wasn't square. I looked all over for a wrench or something to loosen the nut and straighten thigns out and couldn't find anything. I walk over the the station next to mine and ask if they've seen a wrench for the lather or a Crescent wrench or something. Nobody says anything for about three minutes and I'm about to say ATF. Finally someone walks over, what what do they say? "What is a Crescent wrench?"

It was all I could do to not bust out laughing in his face. My GF at the time knew what that tool was. Just think, these people are out there right now designing cars, and all sorts of mechanical equipment.

206er · Post by **206er** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:58 am

93forestpearl wrote:Like a Detroit diesel? Those were 2 strokes for a long time.

the thing about the detroit 2 strokes(which are pretty cool) is that they need a blower for proper induction. it gets a bit above my head because I barely understand how gas 2 strokes work let alone diesel ones. at any rate he was able to figure out a way to make these engines run NA with expansion chambers ala gas.

Apex3 · Post by **Apex3** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:38 am

206er wrote:my alma mater(colorado state u) has a program but from what I hear it's very mismanaged with a lot of the aforementioned ego fest as well. kinda speaks to the stereotypical engineers shortcomings LOL. had I gone ME I would probably have tried to participate. seems like a great resume builder as well as getting to learn a fair bit while having fun with something hands on. how do any ME's find time for it with a full class schedule though?

They're probably all mismanaged, mine just isn't managed at all, just a bunch of students running it with no one in charged. I'm kinda disappointed that all the FSAE programs are like this though, not gonna lie I was hoping the dbags would move on and we'd get some better people in.

I really need to make myself go, I'm an ME major, 4th year now(out of 5 for me). It's not too hard to find time, 30-60 minutes once a week, plus some time every Saturday, they're times I wouldn't be doing anything otherwise.

93forestpearl wrote:
Anyways, many many engineering majors are simply kids that are good at math. Engineering sounds cool and the starting pay is good, so they go into it. Here is a little story of mine...

Did someone say my name?

To be fair I also picked it knowing I wanted to do something related to cars

magicmike · Post by **magicmike** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:11 pm

Imprezive wrote:Ya the guy I spoke with said there was a lot of ego's. I don't really get how there could e so many assholes but I guess that's just how it is...

You answered your own question in the previous post. You obviously have never worked with ME's lol

Imprezive wrote:...one of which recently graduated with a BS in Mechanical engineering...

Imprezive · Post by **Imprezive** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:25 pm

Oh here is a funny fact I got from the same guy. they were using a Honda CBR F4I sportbike engine w/ a mega-squirt standalone running it.

They dyno'ed it on a dyno-jet and it made 40whp.

93forestpearl · Post by **93forestpearl** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:40 pm

^ That's pretty low, even with the 20mm restrictor. Last years motor, which I believe is a F4i motor, made about 70 hp on an water brake engine dyno.

The intake system needs to be designed around the restrictor though.

suba · Post by **suba** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:21 am

My school (university of idaho) has been involved with FSAE for about 9 years now and we run in to different problems than a lot of the bigger schools. We have a very small number of people (usually about 10 max) doing all of the design, manufacture and testing, as well as driving, which means that there simply isn't time for complete design of every part. On the other hand the bureaucracy is a lot less when you have fewer people involved. We also have essentially a nil budget ($7000 last year I think) which makes things even tougher, though we placed something like 13th overall at last years competition.

That program is shut down now though because we're starting Hybrid FSAE. Same kind of competition, but you can only have up to a 250cc gas or 300cc diesel engine mated with electric propulsion. My masters research is the design of the drivetrain, which seems fairly straightforward but has turned in to a serious bitch of a project. Biggest challenge for us is that right now I'm the only one on the project, and I'm a mechanical guy so I've been learning WAY more about electric motors than I ever meant to.

evolutionmovement · Post by **evolutionmovement** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:31 am

Can you guys do 3-wheelers or do they have to be 4?

Apex3 · Post by **Apex3** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:34 am

There's pretty strict rules, I'm 99% sure you can't make a 3 wheeler. The 1% is because I haven't really gone much...

suba wrote:My school (university of idaho) has been involved with FSAE for about 9 years now and we run in to different problems than a lot of the bigger schools. We have a very small number of people (usually about 10 max) doing all of the design, manufacture and testing, as well as driving, which means that there simply isn't time for complete design of every part. On the other hand the bureaucracy is a lot less when you have fewer people involved. We also have essentially a nil budget ($7000 last year I think) which makes things even tougher, though we placed something like 13th overall at last years competition.

That program is shut down now though because we're starting Hybrid FSAE. Same kind of competition, but you can only have up to a 250cc gas or 300cc diesel engine mated with electric propulsion. My masters research is the design of the drivetrain, which seems fairly straightforward but has turned in to a serious bitch of a project. Biggest challenge for us is that right now I'm the only one on the project, and I'm a mechanical guy so I've been learning WAY more about electric motors than I ever meant to.

Are you an ME major? We seem to have a lot in common

me being at WSU and all

legacycentral bbs

A forum for 89-94 BC-BF(BJ) Legacy Owners and Fans

Anyone heard of Formula SAE?

Anyone heard of Formula SAE?