EJ22T on a VW Beetle

[onix]

Hi everyone!
I am no new to Subarus. I had a brand new 2004 STI which I traded for a 2010 Legacy GT which is my daily driver. I am in the process of collecting parts for a proyect VW bug that will be using Subaru drivetrain. I will be using an EJ22t wich I already have a NOS shortblock. The DOHC heads won't fit without butchering the back of the car. The SOHC heads of the EJ22t fits on the Bug engine like a glove, so the DOHC are out of the equation. We want to get around 300hp out of these engine. The car will be a 2,000lbs semi daily driver and the engine mated to a reversed 5 speed STI trans. Will like to get your recomendations on this application?
From what I had read here it seems that the OEM ej22t crank with a set of Eagle rods would be fine for my hp goals.
Also read the Wiseco pistons would be a nice set. As this is a totally NOS shortblock(it is even on the original crate) I think I need a set of ej22t stock size Wisecos. Are they available or need to custom order?
As I am set on the ej22t heads I learned here that my best bet would be to send them to Delta cams. I had 2 seats of the ej22t heads: a non rebuild used set and a rebuild set. The second set was bought at RS25 a couple years ago. They were mild ported and coverted to solid lifters. I think that would be the right ones for sending to Delta. What you think?
We can build a custom header. What tube diameter you think?
Being on the VW scene for decades we are very familiar with ITBs, so we want to use TWM ITBs. Not sure on the size yet.
As I am looking for reliable street driving I think a turbo like the GT28x would be good. Need to read a lot on this. I have a couple of turbo books, so it time to look for them.
In my area the Micro Tech and the Haltechs are the most used although the Electromotive,EMS,MS and SDS are also used. Any experience on them?
Injectors recomendations?
Remember this will go to a light 2,000 pounds car with only RWD, so even it get only 250hp at the wheels that would be magic!!!
Thanks for your time and recomendations, if you any links for these please let me know.
Here is a link for my aircooled 1303:
http://www.germanlook.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10985

[Legacy777]

Welcome to the BBS!

I guess to start out....if you have a good stock engine with new or good stock internals, they will handle 250 crank hp pretty easily. If you want 300, the stock internals will work, but the forged rods & pistons will offer you a little bit of added protection.

Here are dyno plots from my car running a Link stand alone engine management with stock internals and a TD05-16G turbo. On that dyno stock STi's put down 250 hp/250 ft-lbs to the wheels, so about a 50 hp drivetrain loss occurs from the AWD. I think that kind of power in a 2,000 lb car would be plenty fast, but understand the desire for more power!

My new motor has the Eagle rods & Wiseco pistons. You'll spend about $800 or so for the combo. Additionally, the motor will need to be bored to the correct size to fit the Wiseco pistons. They come in .020" & .040" OS, however I think you could probably get Wiseco to make you a custom set of pistons if you really wanted. Additionally, the Wiseco pistons do up the compression ratio from the stock 8:1 to 8.5:1, so you get a little bump in off boost performance.

Delta Cams does make a cam for these motors, no need to send them the heads, all they need are the cams. My new motor has the 220 grind cams, which is their street/torque cam. They offer a 230 grind which is more for high hp and racing applications. The cams do affect idle. My idle is a little bit lopey, but is tolerable. My stand alone I think handles the idle adjustments better than the stock ECU.

My new motor only has about 1,000 miles on it, and needs to be retuned. I will probably not have that done until the fall and temps start to cool down a little bit, but I'm hoping for close to 300 wheel hp.

As for the exhaust size....the stock manifold piping is 1-5/8" ID. That size works pretty well to keep the lower end torque and power. Unless you're building a high rpm motor, I'd stick something around there.

I looked at the Haltech E8 several years back, and decided to go with the Link ECU.

Here is my comparison thread.
http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=35193

Most of the stand alones are pretty similar. I would suggest getting whatever one you have the best local support for and that will have adequate I/O. Local support has been my biggest challenge. I had two tuners in Texas (Houston and Dallas) try and tune the car and their lack of familarity with the Link stand alone and all the corrections/settings just didn't produce a good tune. I finally drove the car to Northern California to have it tuned. The results are the dyno plots I posted above. These are from the tuner in Houston....mind you the same engine configuration, just a different tuner.

http://www.main.experiencetherave.com/s ... _dyno1.jpg
http://www.main.experiencetherave.com/s ... _dyno2.jpg
http://www.main.experiencetherave.com/s ... _dyno3.jpg


BTW, nice looking bug!

[onix]

Hi Josh! Great, great info and welcoming! A lot of forums seems to be non tolerant with naives like me, so I really apreciate your words! Will be looking on your recomendations very carefully. I think we have a great potential of getting our goals. Driving old modified cars are a lot more appealing to me than driving newer cars.

[Legacy777]

You're very welcome and let us know if you have any additional questions.

[onix]

Great! I know I will be asking a lot, but first will be looking at your build very carefully.
Here is a link for a set of heads I bought 2 years ago from RS25, they were converted to solid lifters for more rpm. What do you think of this mod?
http://www.rs25.com/forums/f178/t159356 ... b-etc.html

[beatersubi]

Consider carefully the implications of ITBs. I believe much of the mid-range torque that the EJ22T makes is attributable to the intake manifold design. Also, the 22t heads don't flow very well past ~5500 rpm, even ported, so high-rpm power is hard to get. The 22T makes enough mid-range torque that top-end isn't as important.
It would be cool to see, though. I haven't seen a 22T successfully running on ITBs.

[Legacy777]

Great! I know I will be asking a lot, but first will be looking at your build very carefully.
Here is a link for a set of heads I bought 2 years ago from RS25, they were converted to solid lifters for more rpm. What do you think of this mod?
http://www.rs25.com/forums/f178/t159356 ... b-etc.html

The solid lifters mainly give you an advantage if you're planning to run the engine into the higher rpms, past the 6.5k redline. Based on the ej22t's head design of low & mid-range torque, and not flowing as much as some of the newer Subaru heads, I'm not sure you will see much of an advantage with the solid lifters over the stock hydraulic lifters.

Do the solid lifters have roller tappets?

[onix]

Consider carefully the implications of ITBs. I believe much of the mid-range torque that the EJ22T makes is attributable to the intake manifold design. Also, the 22t heads don't flow very well past ~5500 rpm, even ported, so high-rpm power is hard to get. The 22T makes enough mid-range torque that top-end isn't as important.
It would be cool to see, though. I haven't seen a 22T successfully running on ITBs.

Thanks !
That is an interesting point that I should look very carefully. I must say that the main reason for the ITBs are the asthetics, the cool factor and have something diferent.

[onix]

Great! I know I will be asking a lot, but first will be looking at your build very carefully.
Here is a link for a set of heads I bought 2 years ago from RS25, they were converted to solid lifters for more rpm. What do you think of this mod?
http://www.rs25.com/forums/f178/t159356 ... b-etc.html

The solid lifters mainly give you an advantage if you're planning to run the engine into the higher rpms, past the 6.5k redline. Based on the ej22t's head design of low & mid-range torque, and not flowing as much as some of the newer Subaru heads, I'm not sure you will see much of an advantage with the solid lifters over the stock hydraulic lifters.

Do the solid lifters have roller tappets?

Yes, they have the roller tappets and the turbo cams. I had learned that the flowing of the heads are going the limiting factor comapred to the newer ones. Coming from the Air Cooled scene I personally knows the difference a good flowing heads do. I think the following comparison may be not valid do to multiple measiring , design and applications differences but will lkie to do it:
I saw the Cobb flowing chart on the EJ22T and EJ25. Those numbers, EJ22T 193cfm@28" and EJ25 240cfm@28", seems very good compared from what we get on the VW aircooled heads. A 044 VW head, which is considered a basic performance head had around 126cfm@25" with a full build welded, massive ported and polished with valves 44/38(stock are 35/32) get around 220cfm@25". To get the later we had to bring between $1,000 to $2,500 depending on who does the magic and how!
Was told that the totally stock dual port VW head have around 100cfm@25".
Obviuosly I had to do a lot of reading before any attempts on this but you know any performance valve springs for the EJ22T?
Thanks
Onix

[Legacy777]

I guess to clarify....is the roller section on the rocker assembly, like in the picture below?



If so the cam profile between the standard rocker/lifter assembly and the roller ones is different. So if you have stock ej22t turbo cams they are not designed to run with the roller rockers. However Delta Cams should be able to provide you a regrind for the roller rocker assembly.

Check out this thread for some conversation/info
http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/top ... ort-heads/

As for the performance valve springs. I think there are some out there, but I don't know any off the top of my head.

[onix]

Those are the rockers that came with the heads, rollers. Thanks you pointed the incompatibilty of cams because somewhere I read that but had forget it completelly. So when time comes I should made clear to Delta cams. I had another set of non rebuilt EJ22t heads that do have the hydraulic set up.
If you remember those valve springs please let me know!
The info and guidance you are giving me is great. I am triying to get all the info first do we can build the engine on paper first before buying incorrect parts!
Thanks!

[beatersubi]

The cams will physically work with the roller rockers, but the profile on the cam is different between the roller follower and the flat tappet resulting in differing valve operation.
Deltacam has all the info and the cam profiles saved on file and can also provide the valve springs.

[onix]

The cams will physically work with the roller rockers, but the profile on the cam is different between the roller follower and the flat tappet resulting in differing valve operation.
Deltacam has all the info and the cam profiles saved on file and can also provide the valve springs.

Great! So will contact Delta cams for their input!
Thanks

[Legacy777]

Let us know what they say.